Hi Darci, good to hear from you again although I am very sorry you're having such a rough go.

peace and love to you Darci ~~ Dianne

Dianne,
I've never done yoga.

(Speaking as one who is not taking the time to do a little basic meditation.)

Dave, my yoga days were over 40 years ago. No poses I would want to practice now. I get a lot of gentle stretching in my everyday activities. I really enjoy washing floors on hands and knees because it's a good, easy stretch. I could use more formal exercise for sure but even cane use (which has been less recently) isn't incentive enough.

I did learn about pranayama (many meanings but basically breathing techniques and the vital life force in all things) which kept popping up in other explorations as a very good thing and kundalini which I personally felt to be an uncomfortable and very frightening feeling.

Oh Dianne, What a terrible story to hear.... You were wise to withdraw your trust and I am happy again, you are with us today. There are postures that require core strength as well as that connection with the breath which can hold the body, as well......in order to do postures as such. He should not have left you to get out on your own and instead helped teach you how to bring your body into it, step by step over time and of course out.

Core strenght is one of the most important things to develop in yoga and does not take fancy complicated postures. Rather the very subtle simple movements with holding. Years ago in one of the yoga classes I atteneded, we had an olympic athlete who could not hold the postures and his body started shaking. We are talking a beginneer posture in which you develop your core strength that might not even look like yoga, although requires the holding.

There are many ways to practice yoga that do not involve those complicated postures and in fact if that is all a person thinks yoga is or that those postures are needed to have a real practice, they are very mistaken.

HUGS again....

Thanks G. I never had much core strength.

The lessons learned under him carried over into other areas of my life and I think that's what makes for a truly great teacher.

HUGS Dianne. At first I read the horse teacher as mean, although are you saying it was ok how he was to you? Sounds pretty touch and go situations to try with the horses. I rode horses as a child, although not your experience leve....just summer camp and whenever family went to the stables. Sometimess they would give such beginner horses, that to make sure I did not get one.....exaggerated about how often I had rode. I did not want to be walking, trotting and at best getting up to a canter....found that boring 🙁 Wanted to galloping throught he fields 🙂

I got a wild horse named "Frisky" who gunned it for the highway! I had beenn taught that when a horwse was not listening and going a way we did not want, you must pull their head back to stop them and also so they cannot see to keep going forward. As well, as you know it makes them go in a circle... Well this horse was so wild that even thought it would go into a circle for awhile an I could handle it's speed and even knew what to do....it was not ready to be rode yet as it kept trying to go for the highway. Actually became a bit of a scary experience. Needless to say, I returned that horse and got another one. It had not been broken in and while I had experience, am thinking it was not ready to be ridden by anyone other than someone who breaks horses in.

As far as core strength goes, it can be very subltle movements and holdings(the absolute most beginner appearing stretches and yoga pre-postures) that are responsible to build it actually. That is how the core strength I had at that time had been built and I had health issues, so one would think beuilding a core would have been impossible...not so with the right teacher/patience and effort.

Core strength is number one stepping block for all yoga postures. As far as teachers go, we learn from all of our best teachers I find...which do include the ones we would not go back to or put our trust in as well.

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Reading everyone's post tonight on the Sunday chat line, the words from my morning meditation kept ringing through my thoughts and I want to share them with you all.

So often we get frustrated that we are not getting things cleaned up quickly enough. We want to work faster and get it done sooner.

Here are thoughts from Anne Wilson Schaef's devotional Native Wisdom for White Minds, page 33.

"Easy, easy---just go easy and you'll finish.
Does this mean that it's okay to be lazy? Does this mean we don't have to work? Does it mean to stop the things we are doing? Maybe. Maybe not.
We have become so work addicted in Western culture, we find it incomprehensible that we will actually finish if we go easy.
A group of us have bought an old hot springs hotel in Montana. We see ourselves as temporary custodians of a sacred healing place. When we bought it, the buildings were almost feeling the bulldozers blade. At first we were overwhelmed with what needed to be done. Then we decided to move slowly, to only do as much as we were able, one step at a time, sanely. This year, at the owner's meeting, we were astounded by how much had been accomplished, and we could scarcely believe it had been done in only three years.
WHEN I GO EASY, I GET MORE DONE."

It seems illogical, but it is true.
My prayer for anyone reading this today is that you will find your rhythm in working through your plan. You will conquer this.
As Aesop said, "Slow and steady wins the race."

old thread so spammers are trying

A significant amount of my clutter is connected with my unfinished projects or is connected to past or future goals/dreams/plans. Some of us here on the message board have discussed how difficult it is to give up on a goal or a dream. One thing I've come to realize is that taken individually, many of my goals/plans/dreams could (in theory) be fulfilled; however, collectively they cannot all be fulfilled. In other words, it is humanly impossible for me to do all the things my imagination wants to do. I am not superhuman. Sometimes, without realizing it, I am trying to "play God." Without realizing it, I have in the past convinced myself that I can do what no one person alone could possibly do. Instead of thinking of getting rid of some of my clutter as giving up dreams, I might be better off thinking of it as embracing my humanness. I might think of getting rid of some of my things as an outward sign that I am inwardly willing to stop trying to play God. Dreams, goals, and plans are wonderful, but if left to run amuck, they can actually stand in the way of completing worthwhile goals. I will do well today to remember that while my Higher Power can help me accomplish many things, I myself am not some all-powerful God. I do well to seek help and guidance from a power greater than myself. When it comes to the great quantity of goals/plans/dreams I have put in my own head, I do well to turn those over to God and to live happily and joyfully within the limitations of my humanness.

LR, THANKS FOR EXPRESSING THIS SO ELOQUENTLY!!!!!!
It is exactly what I was thinking when I fell in the hoard room today. All these unfinished projects, the dreams to create new ways to do things with all my tools and metal things, and craft crap. Your post inspired me and touched my heart to be more accepting of being a human among humans. There is some comfort in having all the possibilities around me, until I fell and landed on some of them.
LR hope you are having a good day, you sure did make mine more realistic, thanks so much.

"Instead of thinking of getting rid of some of my clutter as giving up dreams, I might be better off thinking of it as embracing my humanness."

Thank you, LR, for such a powerful post...it brought tears to my eyes. I am going through one of my store rooms and ge so stuck on the past projects....this helps so very much.

I am a me minister. I am always afraid of throughing out something the people may need.

Barb, thank you so much for posting the Native quote. I must have been Native American in a past life because I can so relate on an emotional level to many Native American beliefs.

LR, I don't have many "projects" for the remaining possessions, but I get the concept of future planning not based on current reality. Now as I contemplate the end of my life (I expect sooner rather than later), I realize my goals have changed from future planning to trying to get what I have right now clean and organized so my son will not have to have a huge burden to face when I pass. I can hope!

Roxie, this is quite profound--> "I realize my goals have changed from future planning to trying to get what I have right now clean and organized so my son will not have to have a huge burden to face when I pass. I can hope!"

My mother died quite young, which means that at anytime I, too, could, too. I guess we all have numbered days, don't we? Sorting through her prized possessions was therapeutic, but cleaning trash and unknown stuff away would not have been. I don't want anyone to have to trudge through my mess and dirt. Lovingly looking at valued pictures, yes. Having to sort through tons of misc. papers stacked to the hilt on my desk, no.

Geneva:

-->I am a me minister. I am always afraid of throwing out something the people may need.

Oh my gosh! Yes, that thought is constantly in my mind..."What if someone will need this?!" And to be honest, I don't know what the answer is all the time. I just know that me storing so much stuff is actually keeping me from being more available to people who need me.

I wonder if me donating items keeps them in circulation, kind of keeps the generosity flowing, so to speak. If someone is in need they will more readily have access to those same non-profit organizations, and I will be more freed up to be of service instead of trapped in my possessions.

My spirituality hides when I am stressed, anxious, worrying. So today I am taking deep breaths, allowing myself to be calm and appreciate my life just as it is today.

" I would like to be clear that I am using the term hoarder, and later clutterer, not to label someone who is suffering from computlsive hoarding or who has a tendency toward clutter, but rather as a shorthand way of referring to that person. I dislike the use of labels because labels are limiting and seem to obscure the potential for change that each one of us has inside of us. In using these terms, I am in no way indicating that a compulsive hoarder, clutterer, or even pack rat is the entirety of who that person is. It simply describes behaviors that impact the person's life."

Dr. Zasio, The Hoarder in You, p3, footnote.

Wow, this is the second time in two days that I have seen the message "Without a vision, the people perish." Proverbs 29:18." To me, that means it is a message to which I need to pay attention. Thank you. /color]

Diane and Dianne,
I think that is a great idea!
I have some other materials from Al-Anon that have helped me live one day at a time. I used to have "Just for Today" posted on my bathroom mirror. And the Serenity Prayer (the long version) has helped me through more than one crisis.

Many years ago we had a neighbor who had been crippled on one side from a stroke. One day I looked out the w indow and saw him working hard on potting some plants. I made a comment about how difficult it was and what he couldn't do. Mrs Dave immediately corrected me, saying that the issue was not what he couldn't do, but what he could do and how much he was accomplishing.

Enjoyed reading your posts, we all are learning so much by doing this journey together. Today I was a nervous wreck before company arrived. When she was here, I felt so much of what she said was what God would tell me. I need others in my life to experience spiritual connection, but have felt being alone is the only way to not make mistakes in relationships. Since I have experienced rejection so many times for comments I make, even on this site, I know all hurts give me a chance to forgive myself, get up and try to do better. Today I was a much better listener and carefully thought before I spoke, asking, what is my intention saying this, is it kind, will it bring us closer or push her away. I felt really good about our interaction. She later called and said how much she enjoyed our visit and again told me how great my place looks now. I think tooth pain and being reminded I can come across as harsh, caused enough misery that I am willing to work on change. I believe it is spiritual guidance to make me a more loving person to myself and others.

Wonderful idea. Would love to be included with this if a new chat or place is being used for this purpose. Thanks!

Diane, I'm glad to hear you say, "giving up is not the answer,.." It can get very frustrating (understatement) when we look at what still needs to be done. Sometimes we don't really appreciate or even recognize all the progress we have made.

I relate to the ADHD struggles and to many of the other things you mentioned. Thank you for sharing your struggles.

You know, when we share our struggles, it can help us. But sharing our struggles often helps others as well. For instance, this morning, I started on a certain task that I originally intended to spend just a short time on (working on my floors). Once I was "rolling" with it, I wanted to keep going. (Sometimes to continue with a task longer than planned is OK and even good, but today, for me it would not have been the best thing.) Precisely because I had read about your "roof" story and had reflected yesterday about my tendency to do that same type of thing, I was able to recognize the behavior in myself today. I was able to stop that "floors" task and move onto the next thing I'd planned to do. So again, thanks for sharing. If you hadn't shared that, I might not have gotten some of the other things done that I did.

Roxie I appreciated you talking about the need for a vision. I hold on to the vision of my neurotic moms people skills and now see that it is time for a new vision. I can now have a vision of peaceful interactions.
I know visualizing living area as I want it has helped, as well as yard and deck. Your post made me think I need to change my vision of remaining "hoard" rooms and garage. I have been stuck seeing them as they are, now need to see them as I want them to be.
Funny thing is my vision of clean areas was not nearly as nice as they turned out. I see this as my willingness to do the work was complemented by spiritual inspiration to make areas even better.

I would love to be part of working the 12-steps. I can see how they would be very helpful.

Currently my slogans for the day are "First Things First"
And "Easy Does It."

God and "my plans"

One thing that has helped me on certain days lately (and that will help me more, I believe, if I do it more consistently), is to make plans for the day (whether they are decluttering plans or other types of plans). Then I acknowledge to God (to "a Higher Power," if it's more palatable to you to use that terminology) that my plans may not be God's plans for me for that day. I try to think in terms of making plans, but at the same time holding them "loosely." That's not to say that I want to go with every whim that hits me that might throw off my plans; that's something I have done in the past, and it often prevents me from making clutter progress. Neither do I want to go with every inclination to drop everything and run "fix" someone else's problem. That's gotten me into more trouble than almost anything else in the past: spending inordinate amounts of time, physical energy, and mental energy dwelling on and trying to fix other people's problems. That can be an "addiction" in and of itself. I need not try to "play God" in other people's lives, thinking that I have the power to fix their problems, that I alone am "their savior."

So when I say "holding my plans loosely," what do I mean? One thing it means is that if things don't work out as I planned, I don't have to jump and scream inwardly because things didn't go my way. I keep in mind that my plans might not have been God's plans for me, and I can be more inwardly at peace about the day instead of being resentful that things didn't go the way I wanted them to. I can feel like I am more "in the flow of life." I can be open to God's plans for me.

Shifting to this way of thinking is a slow process. First, just making specific plans for the day that include specific decluttering plans is new in and of itself. Remembering to turn my plans over to God is not automatic at this point. But I'm making progress.

Diane, you said "Funny thing is my vision of clean areas was not nearly as nice as they turned out. I see this as my willingness to do the work was complemented by spiritual inspiration to make areas even better."

That is encouraging to me, because I have a hard time visualizing these days how things would look (or how I would want them to look) without the clutter. It's nice to think that even if my vision is still "cluttered," that if I'm doing the footwork, things might turn out much better than I would/could have imagined on my own. Thanks for sharing that.

What I suggest is that you start a new thread
"The 12 Steps Of Hoarding".
Start writing the steps down, tweek them to fit.
Discuss this together on the thread, vote as to how the steps and rules should read.
Use the thread to discuss topics.
Find a time where you can all get together in the chatroom.
Post times & dates for chat meetings.
Remember that when the last person signs out of chat, all postings dissapear, forever. A safe place.
There are enough of you who are interested so I believe you should "Go For It!" 🙂

LR, Thank you for your post. I am one who finds it difficult to shift gears when I can't do things the way I had planned or on the schedule I had planned.
There is an old gospel song that says "Make Me a Blessing Today". Life isn't about me. The world does not revolve around me. Being open to God's detours, does make life much more enjoyable. Often, I find that God needs me to just listen to someone. Not judge. Not offer advice. Just to let them know that they have been heard.
Listening and being in the moment with another human being is not a waste of time. It is a blessing.
May you be blessed today, LR.