Aargh!
I'm still unemployed but Goodwill has raised clothing prices 50 cents a garment. Built in shopping control!

"If you find yourself trapped under the influence of "whys,' stand up, walk over and pick up ' something. Feel it in your fingers. Think, 'If this was food, would I want to eat it?' See the job, do the job, and stay out of the misery."
Brooks Palmer in his July 1 2014 blog post.

so yesterday afternoon when I was in a thrift store after dropping off some donations, I had two clothing items in my hands and asked "If this was food, would I eat it?" The answer was pretty much no, so I left them. (You have to understand that Mrs Dave has been known to remark in the past, on why it is that I don't eat some things in the refrigerator until she gets ready to throw them away. :) )

Ooops, I meant Dianne. Sorry.

Hi Diane and Dave,
Ah-h-h, books. I am an eclectic reader and I love books. In the old house we had huge floor to 12 foot ceiling bookcases on either side of the fireplace. I never did fill all the shelves. We purged and purged when we moved to this little house, but there are still too many.
I was given a Kindle for Christmas 2 years ago and when I got my new phone, I downloaded all my ebooks to the phone.
I thought i would never be comfortable reading this way but have found it very useful for 2 reasons. (1) previewing sample chapters of books to see if they are really worth purchasing to buy (2) storing quick reads or books I will only enjoy once.
For books that I want to return to and read portions again, have complicated charts and graphs, or that I want to make margin notes in, I still prefer the real thing. The technology for note taking in ebooks still needs improving.
My library has a fund raising book sale 4 times a year. That helps in keeping the number of books manageable.

I'll have to see about spirituality thread.

I am a slow reader and have difficulty remembering things I've read.

After opening box after box of moldy books, it is evident to me that I do not have a good storage environment for large quantities of books. I don't think I have the money or temperament for it either. I have observed people crying as they sell or attempt to sell books they treasure. going forward I'm going to have to be more careful about what and how much I buy.

My readily accessible shelves are almost filled up again-another culling pass is going to be even more difficult than the last one.

Did not buy anything until after 9 Tues morning.
Had some purchases after that.

Dave, how have you been doing? You mentioned being grateful for the good stuff people give to thrift stores--did you mean what you gave or what you bought?
I haven't left home so no problem shopping. Hope you are doing well and have made progress in garage.

Dianne,
I liked your story very much. It presented the essence of what I wanted to say. I thought you spoke very well about developing awareness of your decisions in deciding about what stuff to have.

There are two things in your comments that are challenging me and I am having to think about and come back to.

One is the rebelling thing. I need to do some work with that for me because I suspect that is yet another piece of my issues with stuff which I need to deal with.

The other thing is the weight on your hand you described in an earlier post. I don't think that is wierd. I think that is the edge of message about a deeper effect of stuff on us that we have not hit in discussions. And something I need to think about.

Mrs Dave and I were at the grocery store a few weeks ago. We went to the bargain shelf.

"BIG score" There were a bunch of bottles of Tide detergent marked way down. They were the two kinds that Mrs Dave uses. Some weren't the "right" smell, but she said at that price it didn't matter. (You also have to know that over the few weeks preceding that visit, I had bought several small bottles of tide to take advantage of some sales.)

So Mrs Dave says that's a good price and those will keep. (A year ago I would have just dumped it all in the cart.) I started putting things in the cart, considering as I went, and when I was done, there were still some bottles on the shelf. Mrs Dave made some remark I can't remember and put the rest of the bottles in the cart. Mr Dave said, "But we don't need them and the storage spot is filled up." Long pause. Then Mrs Dave said "It's nice to share. You choose what we should get." So Mr Dave put some bottles back on the shelf.

A little later, after really realizing how good the price was, Mr Dave said "That was a good price and I can figure out a way to store them if you want to get the rest." Mrs Dave said "No it's nice to share." and we left the extras.

Dianne and Mrs Dave have a vision of other people being able to use things on the shelf. Mr Dave is not there yet. He's pretty self focused.

So I say to Mrs Dave,

Dianne with two n's went to the store, sat down in the middle of traffic and looked at stuff, and finally bought one thing. The CBT therapists would probably be upset with me for saying she did well on an "exposure" shopping trip.

Mrs Dave says, The best thing is to not go to the store, but if you do, the best thing is to buy gently.

Mr Dave says, Well Dianne with two n's and I are alike there.

Mrs Daves asks, How's that?

Mr Dave, well, we rebel. When Mrs Dave and diane with one n and Tillie tell us not to go to the store, we say we are going anyway.

Mrs Dave gives me the hoity toity "oew!" And then: "I've noticed that!"

:) :) :)

Dave - although this is more focused on dealing with physical pain from illness, I think there is relevance for dealing with hoarding behavior too.

Levine - Meditations book

P 182
"Resistance is an unwillingness to go further. It is a reaction ( as opposed to response) to pain, metal or physical. Left uninvestigated, it stops us in our tracks."

(Dave unwillingness to go further, person unwilling to change hoarder behavior= resistance)

skipping a lot relevant discussion

P184
" In order to enter directly this resistance, it may necessary at first to use a visulization meditation. This may allow one to approach and make contact with resistance at levels not previously available. It is a powerful focus for the mind which has been withdrawn from its pain, and thus the world, by deeply conditioned resistance."

again skip a bit

p 185
"This technique of healing resistance is based on the recognition that to see clearly the nature of our grasping we need open our hands. Running for a bus or train, holding to our luggage "for all we're worth," when at last, we sink to our seat, we may find it difficult to open the hand back into its natural spaciousness. It has become clamped closed. We may even have to peel the fingers back one by one. this returning to openness may at times be a painful process. Our mind, like the hand of a sleeping baby, is by its original nature open and soft, but it has become rigor-mortised around desire and fear. Clearly desire and fear are not the problem. It is our identification and grasping that cause suffering. Letting go is the cure."

Perhaps you can see some influence on David's thoughts here.

So now, It's a beautiful spring day. diane has had a good night's sleep and is bouncing around like Jess. Thrift store, Thrift store; Yes, yes; I'll be there soon!

So you've gotten to the store and dumped half the craft section in your cart. These are such good deals you can't even look at anything else. You've got to get the things out of the store before they realize their mistakes and mark everything up!

The reason you can't move is not because of the chewing gum on the soles of your shoes. It is because Dianne and I are standing on your feet. Before we will let you leave, you must give us one reason for each item you want to take home. If you are unwilling to do that, you can't take it home.

If you give us a reason, you need to listen to the reason you give to us. And you need to pretend that you are on Sunday night chat, d and T talking to Dave. Your bullshit meter is actively engaged. Listen to the reason you just gave Dianne and me and then think if Dave said that to me and Tillie on Sunday night, what would my bullshit meter say? Act accordingly!

diane,

Dianne and I appreciate you telling us. We are not sending you to your room for the rest of the day!

Dianne
I have some more posts for you. I'll work them out and post as I can. I need to stop now and deal with this other issue first.

Dianne,

Of course you picked out the place where I had sloppy thinking and sloppy writing and just said "unh-I'll post it, nobody will notice and I can go to bed". And in the process I may have posted something dangerous for you.

One of my big life problems is stuff. I like (and can remember it) that I think is good for stuff, I steal it.

Stephen Levine has spent over 40 years in the practice of meditation and he and his wife have spent many many years counseling the terminally ill and their families.

I have spent 20 years gathering and hanging on to stuff.

There is a bit of a mental and spiritual gap there. That manifests when I attempt to steal, understand, use and explain stolen ideas I don't understand and am ill equipped to use.

I think I was trying to describe an experiment in which one would pretend that the stuff in their life was something that had landed there [seeing stuff, letting go of it and just letting it be present] and that if there was a change in focus [love forgiveness mercy compassion which Stephen Levine talks about] then the stuff would go away and be replaced with something different. My hope being that that departure of stuff in imagination could lead me to seeing more things I could part with when I next saw the stuff in the flesh.

Unfortuneately I think I am so far down in earthly stuff that the closest I can get to whatever the real object of meditation is, is a concept of trading. And what I may have proposed is an idea of trading "bearing stuff in your life" for an idea of "bearing the pain in the lives of others" in your life. I think there are those whom that could hurt.

Hi Dianne and Dave. I didn't write yesterday because I went to thrift store and didn't want Dave to feel like he could go, now that I broke our agreement, but the guilt is bugging me. I went and had taxes done, the stress of dealing with it was a bit much. Then went to a place that makes retaining blocks, pavers and other cement products. They have an area of seconds that would work for me at 1/2 price. I got so excited that it got me revved up for a day of shopping at thrift stores. I am amazed that the bargain finder kicked up in me so easily, although I was already primed to shop from the day before. I tried to see my feelings as I went, it is definitely an addictive drive once I get going. I was able to put things back out of my cart, when I remembered people posting that they filled cart then just left the store. I came home with very little. I had a blind date today to meet at a convention center with a high end fund raiser for new dog park, used item sale. The man suggested it, unaware that I am a compulsive shopper. Thank goodness I am snowed in today, imagine the car full of stuff I would have dragged in. I love high end bargains. All I can do is continue to be honest, get rid of an equal amount of stuff today, forgive myself, do dishes. Dave please do what I was unable to do, stay out of thrift stores.

I just lost a 2 1/2 hour post.

No more time right now.

I'll have to try again later.

http://brooks-palmer.blogspot.com/2014_01_01_archive.html

Monday Jan 27, comparison clutter

diane, allow the ideas in that post to extend beyond clutter to the other comparisons you were talking about. Don't allow your visions of how good you think others are to define you as a bad, disgusting incomplete person. I have done that for oh so many years. I am not sure now if it is possible for me to stop. But I can absolutely tell you it has not served me well and it will not serve you well.

I really make a mistake when I make a statement like "the posters on this site are hoarders", or at least I think that's what Dr Zasio was saying in her book. The better concept is that the posters on the site are People, people who have some hoarding behaviors as part of the package.

When you run over yourself with the tractor because of your buying behavior you are allowing that one behavior to define your vision of your complete person. You are a good, valuable person.

I read a quote the other day that someone attributed to Oscar Wilde. Be yourself. Everyone else is taken.

Desire Intention Action. You just described the perfect model for you to use to change.

History, Desire pops up, Go the thrift store. This automatically converts to intention to go and the action of going follows.

Yesterday. Desired popped up, Go to thrift store. YOU STOPPED AND BECAME AWARE. I HAVE A CHOICE OF INTENTIONS. I can intend to go to the store. I can intend to go home. FROM OR IN AWARENESS YOU CHOSE AN INTENTION and acted upon it. You can do exactly the same thing in a store with a THING clutched tightly in your hand. THE KEY IS THE PRACTICE OF STOPPING AND BECOMING AWARE OF WHAT IS GOING ON and not automatically letting feelings run the show.

I can't explain this, all I can do is say it.

I think that some of the answer can come from considering the grasping or clutching that we do when engaged in hoarding behaviors.

If I sit here right now and think about 16 cans of motor oil, 100 scrap pieces of plywood, a 20 year old bag of grass seed in a red and yellow cat food container and so on, my hand closes tightly around them, so tightly the fingers are turning white. But then I get those fingers unclenched so my hand is open and all that stuff is just resting on an open hand. And then I start thinking about mercy and compassion and how would those things be extended into the problems of the people posting on the site? And the stuff isn't in my hands anymore.

Extending to the store, then when holding an item the question is why do I need to hang onto this so tightly? Is this really a divine provision for me or can I put it back on the shelf?

I have a very long ways to go in releasing things but this past morning these kinds of ideas moved 5 cans of motor oil in my life from a keep at any cost category to a go category.

If I try to say any more about this I will just babble-I just know that dealing with that grasping thing is at least part of a solution. I wanted to start another thread too, but decided not to. GETTING, GRASPING, GIVING. Talking about how we get stuff, how and why we hang onto stuff, and how can a person that hoards move from hoarding to flowing the stuff in their lives?

My head hurts, I'm stopping, good night.

Diane i'm glad it helped. That helps make it worthwhile not to be going myself.

Today I met my friend and we had a nice chat. Dave if not for our agreement, I would have gone to thrift store. I get stressed when visiting with people, especially friends that are happily married and appear to have it all together in their life. when we parted I told myself it would be good go to thrift store and see if I could find a few things I could use to glue rocks on. and I had a few other rational reasons, I thought. It took every bit of will to go straight home, thinking of having to admit going to thrift store, even though it seemed perfectly rational to go shop. Got home and saw clutter and was amazed how I really thought it was a good idea to bring more stuff home. It has been days with no sunshine and I wanted to shop to cheer myself up. How quickly I forget the damage it does to bring more stuff home. I feel relieved I didn't shop and grateful we made the agreement.

With the ban, I am taking extra pleasure in my current group of restaurant china coffee cups and saucers.