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Hoarding Help Message Boards : How to Help a Hoarder : Boom! Hoarder showing same behavior in other situations
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Boom! Hoarder showing same behavior in other situations

Posted: 02 January 2020 - 12:23 PM
Hello Helprejected :)
Hope you had a lovely holiday season.

So sorry that she is so still in denial and even more manipulative than a year ago.

Have you thought of any contingency plans for when the house does sell?
Is there room enough in her house to just shove all that stuff willy-nilly in there?
I know that would make her house even worse but you must be able to move on with your own life.

Hoarders in denial are their own worst enemies.
By trying to hold on to everything they will always lose everything.
Including their independence and often their lives.

Her worrying about getting into a quality nursing home yet still bleeding money to store unneeded possessions will end up putting her in the poorhouse.

I am glad you put your foot down and refuse to rummage through the boxes just to let her know what's in them.
What a stupid waste of your time that would be.

You stand firm and take good care of yourself and your needs. ((((HUG))))
Posted: 02 January 2020 - 11:36 AM
Hello Tillie, Seasons Greetings

Well sos, she's called a few times I think just to see 'is it time yet' to move her stuff. I will say she makes it a point to keep the calls much shorter now.

I even found a storage unit facility that lets one register over the internet-nope "I must see how she would get packages in and out" Along with ingratiating herself with the staff for favors and help with her stuff. Yet she says little or no change with health that supposedly prevents just going to a storage unit office to sign a lease. As we get closer to a sale and moving they'll be less time to assist her.

And she still wants us to unpack some of her stuff to see what's there, not to take it or bring it to her just so she knows. I refused and she'll probably cry she didn't have access to her stuff(even though she says getting into her car is an ordeal) but organizing etc is her responsibility. They're just boxes as far as I'm concerned. She doesn't get that. I'll pull it if she will take it but that's part of the problem of the volume of stuff she has which has to be packed/stored with other stuff in mind, not enough space to give her stuff it's very own 24/7 accessible space. Her stuff isn't co mingled but we've put other stuff in front of it so we can access and use it.

And the save money for the nursing home she can't afford now keeps coming up. But her stuff is her responsibility regards of any present or future personal expenses. Her desire to keep the stuff so she needs to pay for it.

It's over year now since her place was condemned and she was declared a hoarder in by social services yet she still cannot make a simple statement when talking about it-She can't say 'they think I'm a hoarder', she cannot or will not use the hoarder. I'm not talking about admitting to being one but she literally will not use the word hoarder.

Anyway new year and better results I hope.
Posted: 10 December 2019 - 10:47 PM
Hi Helprejected :)
Good to "see" you.

I don't think that even when she's told the house has been sold that she will remove her stuff.
Probably try to talk the new owners into allowing her to keep her stuff there.

She obviously has no intention of signing a lease for a storage unit.
She thinks if she procrastinates long enough she will get exactly what she wants.
I guess she wants a free storage unit, someone other than herself to sign the agreement, then somebody to sort, organize and box up the items she would store there.
Then they would have to organize all the boxes in storage in a way that makes it easy for her to locate anything at a moments notice.

That is impossible and unreasonable.
I think she knows it but is using this as an excuse to not do what needs to be done.

Unfortunately for you it is frustrating and holding you back from moving on with your own life.
So unfair really.

How much square feet of her stuff is stored in the sale house?
Would she possibly be able to buy/rent a "pod" and have it placed on her property to hold that stuff?
U-Haul has these portable storage sheds.
House near me has about 6 of them in their yard.
I think they are remodeling the inside of their house and store their household things in them while the work is being done.
I believe you rent them for as long as needed, paying a monthly fee.

When a person who has a bad hoarding problem who does not want to change or work on the problems, they won't.
They will do whatever it takes to keep everything just as it is.
Unfortunately it often takes city/county officials to get them to comply, as you know.
Then when the heat is off they return to hoarding/squalor.

Hope you are having a lovely December.
My wish for you is that this will all be resolved first thing in the new year. (((hug)))

Posted: 10 December 2019 - 11:37 AM
The house hasn't sold yet and it's obvious now the hoarder is waiting for that word "sold". And they made another half baked insincere offer of money/a loan so I can buyout the others involved in the sale so her stuff won't have to be moved. And this from someone who doesn't want to pay $1200 a year for storage or is worried about hundreds of thousands for a private nursing home. But will part with 10s of thousands of dollars to have to not deal with her stuff. After I told I don't want the house period. Funny thing she jumped/forced that offer into the conversation like what the heck let's try a bribe. But she dropped the subject as soon as she could.

Also delays and excuses continue with finding a new storage unit including she wants to know the office staff will help if needed but that's not their job to help customers move their stuff. She also lost contact with a storage unit employee that was going to help her through the sign up and move in process. And this from a person who declares themselves independent but wants to use the obvious handicap for sympathy and free labor.
Posted: 10 November 2019 - 10:41 AM
Good Morning Helprejected :)

Please, no matter what she says do NOT get any storage in your name for her.
That would just turn into a disaster down the road.

Is there a family member of her's you could contact who would keep it a secret that you contacted them?
They could say they called you or just showed up on their own?
It would be fantastic if you had some reinforcements there to help you.

Bet her family members don't want to inherit her stuff and don't want the obligation to have to dispose of it either should she pass away.

One of my biggest fears is if Steven dies first leaving me to have to deal with his hoard. ;p

Not sure which area of the country you live in but with Winter coming soon it will be even harder to move things into storage.
You also have your own life to live and I'm sure you have other plans too during the holidays.

Maybe make up a schedule of your time and hand it to her.
Make it even more filled up with obligations than your days will actually be just to make a point.
Your time is valuable and she needs to use it better, more wisely.

She needs to sign a storage rental contract so you can move her stuff before she loses your time and her stuff.

Take care Helprejected (((HUG)))
Posted: 10 November 2019 - 09:21 AM
Good Day Tillie

The hoarder isn't sure she wants to go in on a unit with her new found friend but seems to forget she was asking us to go in on a unit with her when we decided to move/started emptying the house. Apparently independent wasn't a priority a year ago.

She's also flinging just about anything now in order to get us to get her a unit on our name. She now says she has new health developments which will affect even further. It's bait to have us jump in a say "Oh don't worry about it we'll take care of it". She's been doing that a lot lately. This while talking about getting a new car yet can't make to a storage unit office to sign a lease. And still has plans to empty it in less than a year.

Still have some options including calling her family which she's forbid me to do yet she says they will get alot of her stuff.
Posted: 06 November 2019 - 09:12 PM
Hi Helprejected :)

Well she knew the lower fee storage unit offer was only for a limited time only.

Yes, so true. Having a house properly "staged" is important to get serious offers.
With too much stuff, storage, clutter, etc. people can't envision themselves living in there.

Wish there was something you could do without always having your hands tied.

Fingers crossed she accepts that other offer and stops pretending she's so independent. ;D
Posted: 06 November 2019 - 12:04 PM
Hello Tillie

You got that right with delaying decisions. And it cost her apparently. New rates at her desired storage unit location in which she never signed for the unit only reserving it. "Oh what am I supposed to do". You would think someone just scammed her out of a million dollars. Starts crying about how unfair it is. She's gotten free storage over the decades for her stuff and now is complaining she has to pay and at the same time won't accept help or hire someone to clean up her place to get more in there.

She still has a cheaper option but can't accept the fact beggers can't be choosers. And the person asking her to go in with her could pull stuff for her anytime she wants but we're back to the 'I'm independent' schtick. This her best option now and will spin it including even if she had gotten a unit she wanted the rents still would've increased and would have had to change or accept it.

The problem here is although only selling the house as-is several don't think were serious or close to moving because of the volume of stuff in several areas much of which is hers. She won't say it but wants to wait until the house is sold. Others in the family not willing to push her yet because of potential consequences.
Posted: 05 November 2019 - 01:47 PM
Hi Helprejected :)

The root of a LOT of hoarding is because of delaying decisions.

They won't toss/donate/recycle something today.They set it aside and say they will make the decision on it later.

You and I know that that later never comes.
Then after decades of indecision the place becomes unlivable.

She needs to be given a FIRM date to have stuff removed from that house.
If she finds even the smallest bit of "wiggle room" she will exploit it.

People who hoard tend to worry about "what ifs?".
What if some day I really need this and I don't have it?
What if I donate this and someday I could have/should have sold it to keep myself out of the poorhouse?
What if the Zombie apocalypse happens or space aliens invade? All this stuff would come in handy to help save the human race???

When actually, having so much stuff can put you into the poorhouse, destroy your house and your health.

Maybe you could lie?
Tell her the house is sold.
She must remove her stuff before the closing, tell her a specific date.
Then after her stuff is out tell her the house sale fell through/people backed out at the last moment.
I know, I hate lying too.
But sometimes "push comes to shove!"

Hope you are enjoying the Autumn.
Posted: 05 November 2019 - 10:34 AM
Hello Tillie

Unfortunately only 'tricks' here. The hoarder still hasn't signed for or gotten a storage unit yet. She now claims just getting in and out of her car could cause permanent damage.

That being said talked to her new found friend from the potential storage unit. The new friend is on to her after only knowing her less than a month. They said she was there multiple times and had trouble making up her mind as to what to get. But they see right through her. Also they will have access to a truck/vehicle to help move her which is all meaningless until she actually gets a storage unit to transport her stuff to. She tries to deflect by complaining on the house sale progress and strategy ie until the house is sold she's probably not going to budge. I told her the home sale is not her worry. She doesn't get it's not just about getting her stuff out because the house is being sold but it's time period to get her stuff out of another's home.

This from a disabled senior women who boasts they're independent. Once the stuff is out of here this will be the first time in her entire life she will be totally responsible for herself. Along with independence comes responsibility including the fiscal responsibility of storing one's own possessions. This is also the first time she will have to make a decision about her stuff. Even if she decides to pay to store it the fact she had to make the decision is probably what's setting her off.

Posted: 31 October 2019 - 09:43 AM
Posted: 28 October 2019 - 03:38 PM
That's fantastic that you are decluttering as you pack up!
Great that you won't be moving excess unnecessary things to your new place! :D

She sure is exasperating...
An excuse/reason why she can not do anything easily.

OK, so she refuses to be wheeled in a chair.
Bet if you spoke to the person in the storage rental office
they would allow her to fill in the rental agreement while she sat in the car.
Then they could take the form and her picture ID back inside and make their copies etc. and get her a receipt.

But I bet she will find a hundred reasons why that won't work either. ;p

Whatever you do, DO NOT rent the storage in your name.
No matter how much she pressures you to.

Really hoping she takes advantage of that move-in special.

Posted: 28 October 2019 - 12:11 PM

She implies and am pressuring

Should read she implies that I'm pressuring her to get a unit but I did tell the sooner the better...

Note she's known we'd be moving for almost a year.
Posted: 28 October 2019 - 10:37 AM
Good Morning Tillie


As far as getting her into a car and wheeling her in. She refuses wheel chairs and got into an argument with urgent care staff who then noted her as uncooperative.

She 'says' she has a new found friend/employee from her storage place of choice to the point where she gave them money for a deposit/administrative fee(if administrative fee paid how is it unit is not in her name, I checked). She 'says' this friend will help them.

She implies and I'm pressuring her to get unit but told her the sooner the better because once sold we have our stuff to do and don't know how a long period we can stay in home. Other family is afraid of pressuring into legal action or accusations to social workers/police.

She is absolutely dragging her feet fighting getting her stuff out. She's also trying to put the ball in my court hoping I just cave and sign in my name. I've noticed when she's silent(rare) that's her way of attempting/force a decision on you.But she's worried about losing a move-in special expiring at end of month so hopefully that is a motivator.

And yes while cleaning/packing up my stuff I am suprised how much and how easily I donated,recycled or threw out. I keep winding up with empty boxes & containers so Im doing something right.
Posted: 28 October 2019 - 09:18 AM
Dear Helprejected

I only went into such detail to let you know that I really, really do understand what you are dealing with there.
I really know what it is like trying to work with a hard core hoarder in a hard core hoard.
It's insane and illogical trying to maneuver around the stuff AND the person.

There is nothing hard to understand about her needing to rent the storage space and that you will rent a truck and move all the stuff.
You have made her part in this so very easy for her.
She just wants to fight having her stuff removed from the house.
Give her a firm deadline and don't back down.
Even drive her to the storage facility and wheel her into the office to sign the paperwork.
We both know she will never do any of this on her own and the house needs to be sold so you can move on with your own life.

I bet that like me, you are now becoming a minimalist with your own possessions.
Not willing to put up with any clutter of your own. ;D
Posted: 27 October 2019 - 09:51 PM
Tillie, apologies if I gave the wrong impression or brought up the obvious(dumb me). I wish I could give you useful/helpful suggestions, hints etc. You're deeper than me. Tell me anything if I'm blowing wind and shut the heck up. I appreciate every post you make which helps me and hopefully gives information to others.

The cars yikes. I had an old car sit starting it few times a year for several years. Wasn't enough to keep the rubbers and plastic expanded, moist. some of metal started going and even kept it waxed . Sold it for scrap once it developed a fuel line leak in the worst location possible. And my cost would've been 30% of scrap sale value. I will say if he ever gets close to getting rid of them there are two types of scrappers on that will pluck every last thing for individual sale(usually junk yards) and just buyers frequently tow truck drivers who will buy it for scrap/resale to a junker(not best deal)

She called again today testing the waters even left a message saying just trying to see where we stand. She called later with the same old. I bit my tongue and responded as best I could. But the call lead again to her health but she realizes she has to get her stuff out. Told her we'll get it into a storage unit but she has to sign for it. We'll take care of transportation. She almost went off when the subject of a truck rental came up. She started acting as though she would take care of it then got upset when I told she has to show her drivers license but harped she might not even be able to get out of the car. It took her several minutes to calm down after she finally realized I would rent the truck. She's trying to act like she wants to take care of it but it's a show. It soothed her a bit when I said I need to rent one anyway for my use. I will rent the truck or even hire movers, I don't get whats' so hard to understand.

Again Tillie I appreciate your time and effort with these posts because they are helpful to me and hopefully others. Call me out if I say something stupid. And keep on posting

Thanks Again.
Posted: 27 October 2019 - 07:08 PM
He refuses to give up complete control of the finances because then he would not have all the money to spend for buying more clutter.
He spends the money on crap we do not need and refuses to spend it on anything for home maintenance and repairs.

The front of the property is filled with derelict vehicles that haven't run in decades.
I would have to take the car and leave to make room for the workman's truck.
But that's alright.
There are a few areas where ladders can be put up to access the roof.

He has the huge garage completely packed full from floor to ceiling, the 3 car carport and most of the driveway hoarded.
The farthest out roof portion of the carport has collapsed and is hanging dangerously down covering up all his clutter stacked in there.
All around the property are big heaps of assorted clutter.
It's all big heavy stuff with sharp edges that rip my clothes and flesh if I venture out there.

I do not allow him to clutter inside the house except his bedroom and that's real bad too.
He is very bitter that I won't allow clutter in the house.
Says it's ALL my fault he can't organize his hoard because I won't let him put any of it in the house.

The garage is larger than the inside of the house and even has a second story, the house is very tiny.

Periodically I will ask him if he has a certain item out in his hoard.
Last time it was for a refrigerator light bulb and it took him days to finally find one.
Many times he just gives up looking.
He is always misplacing things that are important.
He loses his keys, eye glasses, wallet, etc. often.
Then he blames me, says I moved his stuff or threw it away.
I never touch his stuff.

It's real scary to go into the garage.
It smells terrible.
There is a lot of yucky stuff deep on the floor.
Bins & boxes stacked to the ceiling but are leaning/teetering over likely to fall at any time.
You have very narrow little paths to walk through the clutter down the center of the garage with so much stuff heaped up on either side you can not see the walls.
Then the little path ends and there are things you must step over to get to a corner where he sits in his chair at his TV and eats his food.
All around that area he has bottles perched everywhere that are filled with urine.
There are rats and mice and snakes in there.
And he thinks there is nothing wrong with any of this and that I am just an unreasonable B#%&H for wanting it cleaned up.

So yeah, I do really, really understand what you have been dealing with.
(((((HUGS))))) :)
Posted: 27 October 2019 - 05:14 PM
I understand your frustration. Those financial records or any records could become an issue.

Can't set a boundary or house rule that all important papers go in one spot? Even if you could get them into one room.

Here you ask to find a working pen she's goes into a tizzy it's so bad. Or ask her to find a current bill which winds up on the bottom of pile in hours. Retrieval of anything becomes a string/game of dominoes. Then she finds it but now must spend 15 minutes going through a pile she knocked down or messed up looking for it. The amount of items handled twice or tasks repeated in ridiculous.

Ugh the repairs. Will the stuff prevent a roof repair or it's just money & time. How about the outside can ladders be set up or trucks parked close enough so contractors have access to their tools?

The amount stuff she has in the garage here has made repair time consuming. Even changing the lights in the center because it takes a 1/2 day to unpack and repack, should be 15 minutes but it's a morning or afternoon. Repairs were made when a new door probably should've been installed-this was right before the housing bubble in which many home improvements were cheaper. After many a household repair at least doubled.
Posted: 27 October 2019 - 04:12 PM
I guess she feels like she will live to be 500 and that there will be time enough to do all this later.

Steven keeps talking about all his plans for all the things in his hoard.
I keep asking him how long does he think he will live?
Wouldn't you rather spend your time doing something/anything more enjoyable than tending to this massive hoard?

I keep asking him about the finances and all things financial so in case he's in the hospital for a month like last time I can pay the bills.

My biggest fear is that he will die and leave me to clean up this mess all by myself without the funds to hire help and repairmen.

It's not like him dying isn't something that will be unexpected.
His health is terrible and he does not live his life right.

Our roof has had a leak for over a year now. Not too bad since we are experiencing a drought but that still needs to be fixed.
He insists he will hire the roofer but he hasn't and he won't allow me to.

I wish there was a magic word you and I could speak to get them both to listen to the reality of the situation and let us help fix these problems.
Posted: 27 October 2019 - 10:38 AM
Hello Tillie

Her fear of winding up in 'a' nursing home is supposedly her biggest motivator not to spend money ie mooching storage off whom ever she can. And every now and then she blurts out some of her financial numbers. I don't think she has enough to get in a private one or get a private room. But even then what would she do with all her stuff if given a choice but mandate to go into a home?

I try to tell her it would be cheaper to clean up her place ALOT and just be resigned to the fact that she'd have to pay for somekind of regular home care. If she could get a nurse visit 3 times a week along with a helper cleaner 2 times that might get her by. Paying $10-15K a year for help is cheaper than a $250,000K room in a home. She'd have to cash in so many of her investments the left overs wouldn't produce enough money. If she strategically invests/sells assets she could very easily get another 10 years in her home. And her finances are a mess too because she tried to do everything herself(now deceased family did it for her).

She complains that the free tax preparers at the senior centers are costing her money. They're not equipped for some of her investments. She won't even pay for just one investing or tax consult. Even close friends begged her to consult a lawyer on her hoarding citation/possible eviction. She refused. We told her just one consult, don't have to use them. She refused because $ 150-300 is simply too much money for someone eye balling 1/4 million dollar nursing homes.

She over whelms herself by not taking any action even if getting information and options.
Posted: 27 October 2019 - 10:16 AM
Good Morning Helprejected

Well, I guess you just can't argue with her since she has so much recent knowledge of medicine.

With so many people abusing pain pills many doctors don't even prescribe them any longer.
They worry about being sued if someone over doses or becomes addicted to them.
She would need to consult a pain management specialist and keep all her appointments.

With her age and her not taking preventative care she may soon have a medical problem that she can't just brush off and make up excuses for not getting it treated.
She may end up in a nursing home unable to ever return home.

I have known many people who after high school thought they knew everything.
No matter how many years passed they felt they never needed to learn anything more and there was no way anybody could convince them differently.

At her age she will not change.
Sad but true.
Posted: 27 October 2019 - 09:06 AM
Good Morning Tillie

You are absolutely right about the self diagnosis. She says her experience as a social worker and hospital volunteer over 50 years ago gave her knowledge. Throw in the internet, trouble. It's that same social worker job, not decades long career she uses to profile people. But she can't read people. She is so out of it with current terminology, slang, sayings, behaviors etc it's like she hasn't added to her knowledge since high school or college. Same for current events, it's like she's stuck in her youth in the 40s & 50s. Slow or obstinate don't begin to describe it.

Then she's always complaining about the lack of prescription pain killers. Her old doctor retired new ones won't prescribe but this is over 6 years ago. She's brings them up every time you see her at least once a conversation. I was thinking not only did they kill pain but they probably mellowed her out a little, she is/has been always been on the nasty/ pretentious side but her outbursts have been much more frequent over the last 6 plus years. I agree she has the right to them but she's barely tries recommended substitutes-excuses.

She also uses excuses not seek treatment for poor treatment or incidents in local hospitals a quarter century ago. Try to tell her things change including staff/people.

All of this is stalling and procrastination.
Posted: 26 October 2019 - 05:43 PM
Hi Helprejected

That's what night blindness is, lights from the oncoming cars blinds you.
You can see well enough as long as there are no other cars on the roads.
I have a cataract developing in my right eye and I won't drive at night any more at all just to be safe.

I am pretty positive that once she gets her stuff into a storage unit she will never deal with any of it.
So really worrying about fires and broken elevators is just a smoke screen to keep from renting that space. LOL ;D

That's funny she's saying it's all your fault she hasn't taken care of her medical issues because you need her to move her stuff out of your house.

Also, a person who self diagnoses has a fool for a doctor, themselves.
Having a medical background myself I know what all goes into making a PROPER diagnosis and it's a lot more than what she can find in a book.
There is also a lot of misinformation on line there days.
Tell her that without a proper diagnosis from a real medical doctor with xrays and tests to back it up it's all just speculation.
Posted: 26 October 2019 - 02:58 PM
Good Day Tillie

She says she has cataracts and will get them addressed. Says glare from on coming cars are her issue. In the meantime if her day doesn't start until between 3-5 in the afternoon she will wind up doing stuff in the dark. I think this is why she likes going to the store after 8-9 PM because evening rush is over and she is frequently the only one driving on her 1/2 mile or so trip.

But the cataract excuse is just the tip of the iceberg. What she likes to do is self diagnose so she likes to explain her condition in gory detail as to pretend she has it figured out and will eventually get around to it. But she won't. Nor does she always have it right. In the meantime you get long angry descriptions/complaints about her health. She doesn't like explaining her self but she doesn't mind using it as a deflection tactic.

She is planning on getting eye, back & shoulder surgery. So even if she's in a rehab for a year she'll come out a senior in her mid 80s. I don't think she' be raring to go move boxes etc. And she tries to guilt trip you by saying I should be taking of myself/issues but I have to get the stuff out of your house first. Well you had almost one year notice and have been saying the samething the entire time. Could've signed up for a storage unit months ago. Ooops forget those extra few months storage rent would've kept her out of a private nursing home. Even better she could have addressed these issues years ago when they first appeared.

On her potential storage unit. She now is expressing fear of being a crime victim and the elevator not working because her unit will be on an upper floor. She wonders what she'll do in a fire. Part of expressing those 'fears' are to generate sympathy but I'm not buying. Also at issue since her day does start late that means she'll be in there the second half the day including night. Maybe this will motivate getting up earlier. And more important just getting rid of her stuff. I'm not playing body guard. But once the stuff is in there(hopefully) I doubt she'll visit it much no matter how much she wants to sell it. But again there is the option of more ideal settings but that's precious private nursing home money.
Posted: 26 October 2019 - 01:06 PM
Good Morning Helprejected :)

Selling the house "as is" makes a lot of financial sense.
When it would cost too much to make repairs than you would get out of selling it.
She just doesn't want to lose her free storage there.

From what you have written all along here she most definitely is a charity case and keeps demanding people give her even more charity.
She has her hand out but then makes even more demands of people's time and resources to try getting it all done her way.
She needs to learn that "beggars can't be choosers" and accept the help she's offered gratefully.

I honestly believe that you will have to take the lawyer's advice about giving her written notice about her stuff getting out and then you will have to toss it out for the property sale to go through.

It is extremely concerning that she was driving at night knowing she has night blindness.
All the responsible people I know who develop night blindness due to aging never drive at night.
Just one of the facts of life we face when getting older.

It really does help if you can find a place of "inner calm".
No matter what is going all around you, you can draw strength from it.
Meditation helps to achieve this.
I see chaos all around me but yet I can mentally take a step back from it, detach mentally and emotionally from the insanity.
Then deal with the situation from a better perspective.
But this doesn't mean I surrender, I fight back but with sound reason and logic.
Posted: 26 October 2019 - 02:29 AM
Hello again Tillie

Sorry you have to experience verbal abuse of some kind. I don't how you do it because I read your posts and see a person from a place of calm.

And yes the constant diatribes, rants, vents etc. I'm not an expert but she should be telling alot of the stuff she tells me to therapists and doctors. Rude is right. And ignorant.

Today she started her first phone call like a child who just came home from school anxious to tell me about their day. She was impressed & happy somebody helped at the store. Then later she harps can't rely on charity, she isn't a charity case etc yet it's been people voluntarily helping her that have kept in her home, frequently fed and helped with numerous other issues that would've cost her more than money if ignored.

The lawyer said in a way I'd be helping her and public by calling social services because she would taken off the streets/prevented from driving. Got to admit I had to guide her half way home one night because she says she can't see too well at night and amazingly didn't know the area she's lived with in 10 miles of her entire life. We're talking major highway. Sorta shows how much she's stayed in her own world. And this from a person who considers herself worldly.

Then she complains well YOU want my stuff out now. I didn't beat around the bush and I said yes. You can't wait to the very end. It will be too kaotic and we will be doing other things. But it's that sense of entitlement she feels to wait until the last minute like she lives there. We're selling as-is with cash which means a faster close/settlement. Doesn't like our strategy either.

All this behavior is from an 80 plus year who has had a lifetime to deal with and accept her health issues. And supposedly considers herself worldly yet acts like a child who isn't getting what they want. Class act or dignified should not be part of her legacy. I now see why people say things like they were a class act to the end, never complained etc. Here it's the opposite.
Posted: 26 October 2019 - 12:16 AM
Hi Helprejected

Glad you talked to an attorney.

I am concerned about selling the house where she has things stored.
It is not fair that she is keeping the potential sale at a stand still.

So relieved that you are refusing to rent the storage unit in YOUR name.
That would be a huge mistake you would regret.
If only she would just rent the space and let you get on with trying to help her.

Also sounds like her living situation is deteriorating pretty badly.
Like she is no longer able to take care of herself all on her own.
Maybe all her health excuses will be the final straw to force the authorities to take action.
Maybe she would stop making excuses if she knew her claims of being so sickly and crippled could/would cause her to be put in a home against her will for her own safety.
I don't know what the adult protective services in your area do when they find someone so unable to function on their own.
But maybe you could mention this to her to maybe get her to stop making so many health related excuses?

I guess she just wants you to listen to her complaints, no comments at all.
That's pretty anti social and extremely rude.
Would be better if you could just listen to some music while she goes on and on but she would probably hate that. ;)

I know it's not easy to face verbal abuse and it's not easy to let it all roll off you.
Please do not take anything she says to heart.
It's not true.
It is only said to hurt you and make you comply to her wishes.
I know, I face it often here.
It's not the truth ((((HUG))))
Posted: 25 October 2019 - 07:30 PM
Hello Tillie

As usual helpful again.

Spoke to a lawyer said since I have no criminal history things will look better for me. Also said contact social services tell them what's going especially talk of death suicide and by her own admission is pooping in bed that could be enough. Wouldn't stop a civil suit.

She called with an update intended to buy time for her saying her health is so bad and even going to/getting into car could makes things worse. Also suggested that I rent the storage unit in my name. I told her no and they wanted too much personal info including drivers license and picture. She actually backed off that suggestion and all of sudden wants to try making to her car over the next week.

The issue is still her stuff. Today she harped on items she insists she knows that are there but cannot be found. I asked do you know what box they're in since many have an inventory and labeling(20 plus years old). She insists it's here yet she has entire spare bedroom full of unopened boxes from moving day around 20 years ago. I think I mentioned she also still blames the movers for conditions.

She also went off again today like a wild banchee she didn't like a casual comment about an issue she kept dwelling on.I should've known better because it's eggshells to the umpth degree around her. If she would drop the subjects she can't do anything about instead continuing complaining about them everyone would be much better off. If a subject isn't dropped or brought up I assume a person wants some input or opinion it.Nope.

Lawyer said if things get bad he would start writing written notices informing her the stuff must be out by a certain date. If she doesn't respond basically he stuff would be thrown out. I'm trying to avoid that for now because there will many loud booms after that and one only knows what that would trigger her to do.

Posted: 24 October 2019 - 03:30 PM
Hi Helprejected

Difference between delusion & lying is that the delusional actually believe it but if someone lies for long enough it becomes real to them.

Yes please get an attorney to help protect yourself.
If she gets rattled up enough you have no idea what harm she may cause you as retaliation.

Right now the market is flooded with glass, collectables, antiques and other items that people believe are valuable but are not.
With all the online shopping sites now you can find almost anything for pennies.
It's very rare when someone sells something for a huge profit.

An attorney can help you cover your bases so she would not have a legal leg to stand on if she tries to sue or damages or falsely claim elder abuse.
Documentation of her past actions with witnesses would help.
Counter her delusions/lies with proof of the truth.

Best wishes as always (((HUG)))
Posted: 24 October 2019 - 11:00 AM
Hello Tillie

Another family talked to a lawyer acquaintance and said keep her off the property. But she has to get her stuff. I don't want to escalate or trip her into a boom or story. They said pay to have someone remove it.

I want to consult a lawyer to protect myself not the property. Also she says a lot of stupid stuff, frequently gets confused or conflates things and talks trash in her own way. But the fact she spoke in more formal terms is different. Almost seems like she's being coached.

As all this is going on the hoarder says they befriended someone that might be able to help them move it. She met this person while shopping storage units and supposedly this new friend has gotten one for her(another story?). She does wonder why she didn't have to sign a lease.Sounds like one was reserved for her, not rented.

She did concede myself or others would be doing all the work. To me the biggest issue will be broken stuff if any. There alot of different size boxes which could make transport tricky as far as packing them together to prevent movement. She noted antique glasses but crystal or colored glass isn't what it was. It's not just age.

And still has plans to get the stuff up for sale/consigned.

My personal choice is de escalate just enough to get the stuff out. I'll cover my butt. I'm thinking about paying the lawyer to consult and find options other than the courts. Problem is no matter what happens as soon as a disabled senior formally claims somekind of abuse unproven the accused is screwed. She also has accused town inspectors of rummaging through drawers and stuff while there. And the hospital using extra staff to intimidate her when the nurses were taken care of her standing by in an intimidating manner. There is somekind paranoia,misinterpretation along with lying and delusion.

But what is the difference between delusion and lying.

Posted: 23 October 2019 - 06:29 PM
Yep Helprejected
That's why you need legal counsel.
Someone who knows ALL the laws and how to protect YOU.

Do you know anybody in her immediate family that you could talk to?
Do they know how much you have been trying to help her?
I'm sure they know and have experienced her terrible abuse and heard all her excuses.

An attorney will be able to help you and how to protect yourself from any false accusations.

Her hoarding is negatively impacting so many innocent people's lives and it's not fair.

Best wishes (((HUG)))
Posted: 23 October 2019 - 11:30 AM
Hello Tillie

Thanks for the advice. I've talked to several people already. Others involved in the sale of the house said don't go legal yet although I told them we'll need an attorney to legally take the stuff out of the house and put it storage for her in her name. Also we'll probably have to get a no liability clause of somekind put in a document because one of my fears has always been her making a stink over broken items(many already broken/were in need of repair or parts)

She's also being a drama queen saying she was close to dying and might not make it through the night. But again she doesn't want to hear go to a doctor and refuses to use local ambulance services since she blame 911 for getting citing for hoarding. She's done this before.

At the sametime she says if she dies she wants me to call her family about her stuff. But doesn't want them contacted now. She wants attention because she's brought up suicide and dying numerous times before and always heard ignore idle suicide talk because it's probably manipulation.

She and family had disputes before including months of no contact but is now blaming them but they said she was the one who never wanted to see them. But that goes back to not taking responsibility for her hoard, it's always somebody else's fault.

One of things that goads me is that she wants us to call to get her stuff out. She's the one who should be taking that initiative to get HER stuff out. She again slipped in the comment well I didn't access to her stuff in somebody else's house as in she couldn't go over as she pleased. She's just free loading at this point delaying having to pay storage with excuses and rationalizations.

I was thinking about contacting an agency but they said not being direct family or care taker I don't have any stake and it could open the door to accusations being investigated with conflicting stories.
Posted: 23 October 2019 - 10:35 AM
Dear Helprejected (((((HUGS)))))

You did your best and your best was so much more than most would.

She will never change.
Many never change without being forced by the authorities taking action.

Get yourself an attorney.
Call "adult protective services".
Report the situation to any agencies necessary.

You are not giving up on her, she never gave you a chance.
This situation needs to be resolved. The house needs to be readied for sale and it's not fair she is preventing others from living their own lives with her stuff there.

She has been bullying you and you are too kind.
Posted: 23 October 2019 - 02:18 AM
Another and probably last BOOM I have to endure in which this one was accompanied by accusations that I made them fear for their safety during a trip to their place which I never made.

Called them on the phone about 2 1/2 weeks after a phone call that escalated to a debate/argument where we both hung up around the same time. I called to tell her we're putting up a for-sale sign for the home where her stuff is. First got a diatribe about their health which they never doing anything about, then accusations about a conversation and place that never took occured then lies or misconceptions about new storage she has or doesn't have. She said she told me she had a unit weeks ago yet did not pay for it, sign a lease nor can she give me a unit number and property manager cannot be contacted. Also said she befriended the property manager/agent and they might help taking the stuff out of our house. She also said why bother to call her because her health prevents from doing anything. Told her worse case I'd get the stuff into a storage unit and pay for one month then she barked I thought you would help me get stuff into HER storage unit. And she would not hang up or allow the conversation to end. She dragged on and on after I told her several times I have to go.

I think it's lawyer time. And someone has to send her to a psych ward.
Posted: 30 September 2019 - 02:35 PM
When I have been moving and pack up all my things as carefully as I can some times things get broken and they were only packed up for a week at the most.
I would never expect my things to survive intact if packed up for decades and the boxed stacked off to the side somewhere.

I love that! Selling the house "as is" with her stuff still stored there!
I once told some people to go ahead and move leaving their teenage son there.
He was 18 and his bedroom was a big stinky mess.

Right, while they are all fired up and ranting away it's impossible to talk to them until the rant is spent.
Once they run out of gas you can state a few simple facts that they have to angry response for.
Posted: 30 September 2019 - 11:45 AM
Good Day Tillie

Their fault and a nasty tirade. Yup. Here an angry lecture putting every word up challenge and debate.

My worry here is that alot of stuff has been sitting around for the better part of 20 years so if something is broken sometimes I think she'll try suing among other things. I'm not going to have any of that but it could slow the process even more. But we will suffer the blame game, not the packer or person who chose to accept any available space even if a garage for which she still doesn't understand why her stuff isn't front and center for her to look at.

To scare her I'm thinking about threating to give the contents of the house to the new owner when sold if the buyer would agree to help her get storage and transport it.

Sometimes I find it best to let the person finish their tirade and only challenge with direct simple fact for which they can't counter. Sometimes just challenging them with a no win point can shut them down. This is why I think she has IED(intermittent explosive disorder)because the criteria includes extra energy which is the tirade,tantrum.
Posted: 30 September 2019 - 11:15 AM
Good Morning Helprejected :)

She is very good at making herself the poor helpless victim of her own circumstances.

I wonder how much of her clutter contains items made with plastic?
Or particle/composite wood that are made with chemicals like formaldehyde?
And she is worried about storage bins being toxic.

Just like here
It's not his fault, it's my fault, it's because of things that happened decades ago.
He just sits there, the poor helpless victim unable to do anything because it's not his fault.
When in reality it's all his fault.
But you can't tell him that unless you are ready to listen to his nasty tirade.

For you, her convoluted logic and lack of urgency
is going to get her home condemned, her storage items lost and her independence taken away.
She will lose everything and it's a shame because she could have a good safe life so easily if she would just allow you to help her.
Posted: 30 September 2019 - 01:05 AM
Hello again.

You spelled the issues with cardboard perfectly. With her it's the piles of little stuff including mail that keeps on tumbling down. She's at the point just finding mail is a project. She has several consumer issues she can't find the paperwork/receipts for yet still complains.

The bad room has cardboard boxes and stuff stacked chest high. Can barely see the top shelf of the closet nor can she get the closet door shut. This is the room she blames the movers for leaving boxes as-is well over 10 years ago. She literally doesn't know what's there. I had to show her a picture, I took a cell picture with arms above my head to get it.

But the plastic she says simply not her style(piles are?)and can not bring herself to do it. She also likes to say plastics cause cancer. I try to tell her current conditions are going to cause her trouble before some extra plastic containers will make her sick. Then you get the gratuitous statement the stuff has to get out of there anyway(when?) But it's that 'she's above the fray' or snobbishness that makes her difficult to deal with on other issues and topics as well.

Convoluted logic and lack of urgency will get one no where fast.
Posted: 29 September 2019 - 11:24 PM
Hi :)

They both are great examples of how a little bit of knowledge can be a very dangerous thing.

Keeping clear paths to doors and windows is so important.
Reducing combustible materials to a minimum is so important.
Clear paths to make it easy to escape the house if there is a fire and less fuel for the fire to burn.
This is not just for the occupant but also for the emergency responders.
This is why she would be cited, she is a danger to herself and others.

Plastic storage containers is not "décor"!!!
They are a storage solution, never meant to be considered a part of the home décor.
This has me laughing......
This argument of her's is hilarious.

Hideous insects, rodents and mold & mildew love cardboard boxes.
Not only are cardboard boxes a fire hazard but they contribute to bad air quality from the bugs, rodents, molds and other allergens.

Also cardboard boxes tend to collapse over time when stacked.
They topple over and crush people and clog up the pathways.
Many a hoarder has been killed this way.
Most times it's a slow agonizing death too as they lay there hidden under the clutter dyeing of thirst and their injuries.

Cardboard boxes in the home should never be stacked higher than thigh high to prevent this kind of tragedy.

But I guess she has an argument for why she needs to keep her boxes and stack them up high.

Steven has boxes & bins & assorted random stuff stacked 7 feet high and they are always tumbling over blocking the narrow paths between them.
That's out in the garage where he sort of lives since I don't allow him to drink alcohol or smoke in the house or clutter up the place like that.
It's a large garage, could hold 4 vehicles if it was not hoarded up with "stuff".
Posted: 29 September 2019 - 08:09 PM
Tillie, sounds like 2 peas in a pod.

She pretends to know all about various conditions yet her health is has been poor. And she is out of date or oblivious to many a term or topic. I guess that volunteer social work in a hospital 50 years ago wasn't as comprehensive as she thinks it was.

One of my beefs she constantly talks about her health unsolicited and does nothing about it but will proceed to lecture you to pretend she's got it all under control since she has some knowledge on the subject.

The scary part is she was constantly lecturing a now deceased senior family member what to do. Part of their issues was being over medicated but they would run to the doctor ask about stuff they just go lectured on by her.

She gets overwhelmed and doesn't want to do anything, not even keep clean paths to the windows. 'It doesn't matter I haven't done this and that yet". Yet if she kept and they see clean paths to the windows unannounced I doubt they'd cite her again or as much. And those other things including too many cardboard boxes for which I offered to go buy any size plastic storage container she said no, plastic is an interior decor no no, that's not her style. I told the point is to get officials off your back and out of your life. Her priorities are so screwed up.

In the meantime her plan to sell everything with-in 6 months to a year gets top priority-not one trip to the consignment shop this year. This is the broken record statement that could break the camels back because I'm tired of listening to the same plans she hasn't acted on yet. At this point I too am hoping for an inspection fail because she is not independent. As much as I hate the government telling one what to do the amount of time and effort it takes to enable her exceeds a government intervention.

Thanks for the vent. You are not alone in this game. Continue to help and warn others.

Posted: 29 September 2019 - 06:37 PM
Hello Helprejected :)

It's evidently quite easy to fall asleep in a desk chair in front of your computer when you drink an excess of alcohol and chain smoke cigarettes.
Another thing that he is not supposed to do due to his health conditions.

Then he is angry at me when I don't really care about his health problems.
Why should I care when he obviously doesn't?

He plays fast & free with taking prescribed medications thinking he knows better than the doctors and pharmacists.
Then I am left to give emergency measures when he crashes or had TIAs (mini strokes).

He aggressively will argue with medical personnel when they try to educate him about his conditions.
He makes the doctors extremely angry.
He also lies to them an awful LOT.

Honestly I hope your person does have another inspection.
It is needed since she has not allowed much to be done there.
Maybe that is what's needed to light a fire under her to get her to allow you to help there.
She needs to see that she can not continue on the way she has been.
She will lose all her possessions, her independence and possibly her own life.
Posted: 29 September 2019 - 10:01 AM
Hello Tillie

Sorry to hear your situation is still similar to here. Sleeps overnight in a chair? I can nap in a chair but overnight?

Here she says she likes to work off of her bed but that means she's constantly doing stuff on off to side. This with an existing bad back. She does many other damaging things. But she also frequently complains about back pain then gets upset when suggested she see a doctor let alone go into a home. She needs daily assistance, not part-time. Also for someone who says many a room or pile is not her fault because she can't move anything she seems to have no problem getting items, bags, boxes to/near her bed.

I don't even want to get into her choice of medical plans which is costing her some free home care because of her conditions that need regular monitoring/attention. So when a person goes over to help time is devoured because she falls behind on so many daily tasks that time is lost working on her hoard-it's still there a year later.

Should note she's worried about another inspection since she's at the year mark since citation. But she has learned or prepared for nothing like getting a lawyer she could call right away because one day they are going to condemn her place and put her in a home. She won't even consider/shop alternative locations ie no apartment or house shopping that should could go into just in case.By trying to save it all she will wind up losing it all.
Posted: 29 September 2019 - 12:25 AM
Hi Helprejected :)

I'm sure that if she was arguing with the authorities that's the reason for the citation.
Those people will so often bend over backwards to help people who are trying to comply.

Last thing they want to do is fine people and only do it when faced with a non-budging brick wall.

That's very sad that she believes she knows more than professionals and is damaging her own health doing things her own uneducated way.

I see that kind of behavior here every day.
I try to correct him but he raises his voice to drown me out.
I have a medical background and use this knowledge to try to keep him healthy, to no avail.
Then he blames me when he has a new health issue that I was trying to prevent him getting.
Like a blood clot in the artery of his leg after I kept telling him that always sleeping all night in the desk chair will cause blood clots in the legs.
He needed surgery and he blamed it all on me.
So insane.....
Posted: 27 September 2019 - 09:01 PM
Hello and thanks Tillie.

You get her and the situation so well. Funny you mentioned 'combative'.

She got upset that some doctors and nurses considered her non compliant and put that in her records. We had to take to an urgent car one day and was really fussy about the instructions they gave her since she has a disability. Staff as in multiple people said they would not allow her to fall. She didn't believe them. She might know what personal techniques work for her but professionals have techniques too. She fails miserably to realize how she comes off to other people. She is oblivious to so much and she considers herself the smart one and/or victim. She doesn't know it all.

I'm sure part of the reason she got cited with the hoard was her combativeness as well. She always tries to tell others this is how it has to be done. She tried doing that with 911 services and argued with code enforcement.

Also should note alot of her personal tricks/techniques have contributed to health decline because they include improper technique, repetitive motion and are known to risk injury etc.
Posted: 27 September 2019 - 08:10 PM
Hi Helprejected :)

So sorry she is so argumentative and ready to turn any conversation into a confrontation.

She does not want to move her stuff and she won't allow anybody else to move it for her.
She likes the way things are right now and refuses to give up any control.

With Winter coming on now it may be too cold and wet to do things easily.

I think the only way you will ever make any real progress is when the authorities/property owners are involved with legal consequences for her.

This is such an unfortunate and sad situation.
Here you are willing and able to help but not allowed to.

Hang in there, don't let this disturb your "real" life.
Enjoy the Autumn season. Get out and see the trees change color. :)
Posted: 27 September 2019 - 03:52 PM
Correction last paragraph. ...still does NOT account for her lack of progess...
Posted: 27 September 2019 - 03:48 PM
Another BOOM. What started out as casual conversation turned into yet another BOOM. I should know better that is extremely easy for her to get off track or misinterpret things by now.

What started out as what would be an inane comment to most turned into an insult simply for questioning or inquiring why she did something a certain way. She took it as admonishment. This time in particular she went out of her way to get the last word and trying to force the narrative of she was right and I was wrong. I tried backing out, down and away several times to no avail. But wasn't going to be lectured. Then when trying to give her examples of various things she focuses in on the examples with tunnel vision turning them into yet another debate and literally forgets where the conversation started or why the topic of discussion went where it did. Then she claims I wasted her time yet it is not unusual for her to talk an hour and half on what was supposed to be informational update type call-it was 25 minutes today.

She still hasn't committed to a storage unit to get her stuff out of the house. She is so paranoid after she was told she got a break on existing unpaid storage units she is now attempting to run into staff-not management by luck to ensure she indeed was cut a break and it is on the record. So rather than just other management or fess up and pay for what were free units she wasting physical and mental time on getting free storage.

The really frustrating things she complains about the physical/logistical nature of the removing her stuff I told her just rent a unit somewhere over the phone and I would rent the truck and move it in for her. Nope she wants hands in on all parts of the process yet she knows her health won't allow or hinders it. She wants certain boxes on shelves, marked a certain way and/or presort everything days in advance. She's known since early winter she'd have to move her stuff and told in late spring it's time to remove it. Well I just want to do this or that before. She acts like she was given a few days notice.

Don't want to read too much into it but I also noticed she gets easily distracted setting aside conversation which is why it takes so long to do many things. Still does account for her progress or efforts over the decades of losing control of her stuff.
Posted: 11 September 2019 - 02:50 PM
Hello Helprejected

Such words of wisdom.
Giving space to a hoarder is akin to giving money to a person with alcoholism or drug addiction.

I really want the people who's house she has stuff stored to take action and get on with their own lives.
From what you have written they have gone far above helping and don't owe her anything.
Plus they want to clean and paint to list the house for sale.
They have a right to do this.

Wishing them and you all the best (((hug)))
Posted: 11 September 2019 - 12:01 PM
Hello Tillie

You get that she is fighting getting rid of stuff. You've also noted how affects living with hoard as well including affecting domestic chores. She has had the stuff in that house well over a DECADE. The people in that house had to start living around her stuff with one having to rent storage for things. She still doesn't get that her stuff had low priority and had to placed out of the way with stuff in front or on top of it. Even then several rooms in that house were/are much tighter/crowded than they had to be.

Her stuff is impeding selling the home because of the volume AND poor access to various areas to paint, repair, clean etc. She blames poor interest on lack of a new paint job(a dig and deflection of her stuff) yet it's her stuff that makes doing anything in that home that requires space or the shifting/moving of things a major project. Her stuff has affected others with more than time and labor, it's affecting how others live/lived. The person who let her store there has since passed but even they had to start putting stuff away in a unorganized manner because just finding or making space was a chore. The garage and other rooms have been unuseable since her stuff was placed there.

I mentioned it before but she even ticked off a business owner when they asked to get her stuff out after they let her store it a year and was supposed to have gotten it out with in a month or two. Her ignorance is astounding. Some is selfishness and other is just being oblivious to the consequences of their actions.

If one ever decides to help a hoarder do with labor only. Never offer space to a hoarder because space is like money to an alcoholic who is desperately looking how to pay for that next drink. Repeat never offer space to a hoarder no matter inconsequential or temporary it seems.
Posted: 10 September 2019 - 01:20 PM
Hello Helprejected :)

WOW! sounds like even casual conversations is fuel for a tirade.
Best not to talk about much of anything to avoid a tongue lashing.

Looks like she is digging real deep to make up excuses not to declutter or move stuff to storage.
I honestly do not think you will be able to help since she is so unwilling to do anything.

It's sad to just stand by and watch as she keeps backing herself up into a corner knowing what she is losing in the end.

Please don't stand there when she starts a loud vile tirade.
Simply walk away.
No reason for you to have to stay there and listen to that.
And please do not take anything said to heart, it's not who you really are. (((HUG)))
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