I dont know how is best to work these threads. Its kind of hard to seperate conversations by subject, cuz so many subjects naturally flow into other subjects. Ive also noticed that with the way emailing is set up. I like that we have our main 'What are you doing today?' thread that is a nice steady conversation.
Ive got to get something done today...ive been on this phone all day..its been a beautiful cool rainy day to lay in bed...ill be back during a break! :D

I dont know how is best to work these threads. Its kind of hard to seperate conversations by subject, cuz so many subjects naturally flow into other subjects. Ive also noticed that with the way emailing is set up. I like that we have our main 'What are you doing today?' thread that is a nice steady conversation.
Ive got to get something done today...ive been on this phone all day..its been a beautiful cool rainy day to lay in bed...ill be back during a break! :D

Anon and Joan:

If you're interested, I started a NEW THREAD... Since we are jumping back and forth with our stuff in other's posts. Just an idea. We 3 seem to have a lot in common.

Well if she's still a drunk, I believe I got through a lot more than she EVER could imagine... And didn't turn into a drunk.

Thats not fair to you, but she has become a selfish, dishonest & greedy person, so, who really won in life?

No my sister did not. Yet she grew up with a completely different VERSION of my mom.... A lovable, caring, touchy feely mom that was involved in all of her school activities, etc. AND she got anything and everything she EVER WANTED OR NEEDED.... completely opposite of my life with the same woman!

Good for you!!! I also have a 'hurt box'it is filled with a variety of things that hurt me, but that i either dont want to throw out, or things i need to keep, like legal papers i may need. It has worked very well for me, too!
You obviously have every right to be angry & upset with your mother. Anyone would be. Im glad that you grew into a good person, rather than having gone the other direction, like so many people with messed up childhoods do...and your sister didnt exactly evolve into a good person either, from the sound of it...

Good for you!!! I also have a 'hurt box'it is filled with a variety of things that hurt me, but that i either dont want to throw out, or things i need to keep, like legal papers i may need. It has worked very well for me, too!
You obviously have every right to be angry & upset with your mother. Anyone would be. Im glad that you grew into a good person, rather than having gone the other direction, like so many people with messed up childhoods do...and your sister didnt exactly evolve into a good person either, from the sound of it...

Actually, that's how this particular story ends. But it took a real revelation before I could eliminate the "wall" without feeling guilty. And that is what I wanted to finish telling you.

I sat down one day and began to write a letter to my mom "obviously never to be mailed."

I found myself going all the way back to my childhood, up to the day she died. As I wrote, the letter got longer and longer and filled with every emotion I had. When I finally felt I "got it all out" on those pages, I had over 50 pages (actually 100) because I wrote on the back.

I re-read that letter and I was shocked at the amount of anger, hurt, resentment, and even some hatred I had towards my mom!!! I had NO IDEA all of that was inside of me!!!! So I called my "sometimes Counselor" and read it to her. When I was done, all she could say was "WOW!" "I mean WOW!"

She asked me what prompted me to write the letter and I told her I thought it was "that wall."

She asked me how I would feel about taking it all down and putting something there I would enjoy looking at. She asked me if I could do it. After that letter, I said, "with absolutely no problems!"

She said then I think you should. I took everything down from that wall that same night. She told me not to throw it away but to store it somewhere in a closed container in case I might be able to see things differently later in my life. I couldn't get that stuff off the wall fast enough!! And I did not feel one iota of guilt! It felt GOOD! It felt like I had made a statement to HER! Now I have a very nice picture hanging there which I enjoy looking at as I pass by.

And I didn't just do that, I went through the rest of my house where I had little mementos of her and I removed those too. Now I have one small picture of her hanging in my hallway mixed in with my son and grandchildren. And when I look at it, I feel a small twinge of anger but I also feel I need to keep that one picture up.

....i just want to add, that taking that memory wall down of your mom is probably best! I havent had joy spark from many of my family photos either...the type of memories im trying to change are different. I did a lot of what could be considered art collages during my drug years, that if cleaned up & thinned out, can be funny & profound, like they were originally intended. Im not trying to say being a drug addict is ok, but i spent a lot of time creating social & political artistic statements, instead of being angry & upset over my family, etc. I sometimes wonder..why was that so bad again?

Yes, i remember this story from an earlier thread, and actually, in another thread i just suggested not trying to hold on to relationships with draining family members cuz there are so many other beings on the planet to exchange love & positivity with, instead. Thats what ive tried to do. I had a similar situation with my Dad's will, where i did the right thing , but still looked like the bad guy...scape goat has been my role in the family. And since that sister lives in my Mom's town, her influence is felt & heard, not mine...just like with your sister. I swear, these type of family fallouts over wills seem rampant with most people ive talked to! It is not fair, clearly. As hard as that is to accept, it is what it is. Another thing ive found is that when a pattern is developed of one person always helping the other, then that becomes what is expected forever! Ive had way more 'friends'angry at me cuz i stopped helping them, than people i never started helping in the first place! Turn your efforts and strength and focus on your needs now. All of your experiences have given you what you need to not just survive, but to thrive!!! ~☆♡☆~

Yes, i remember this story from an earlier thread, and actually, in another thread i just suggested not trying to hold on to relationships with draining family members cuz there are so many other beings on the planet to exchange love & positivity with, instead. Thats what ive tried to do. I had a similar situation with my Dad's will, where i did the right thing , but still looked like the bad guy...scape goat has been my role in the family. And since that sister lives in my Mom's town, her influence is felt & heard, not mine...just like with your sister. I swear, these type of family fallouts over wills seem rampant with most people ive talked to! It is not fair, clearly. As hard as that is to accept, it is what it is. Another thing ive found is that when a pattern is developed of one person always helping the other, then that becomes what is expected forever! Ive had way more 'friends'angry at me cuz i stopped helping them, than people i never started helping in the first place! Turn your efforts and strength and focus on your needs now. All of your experiences have given you what you need to not just survive, but to thrive!!! ~☆♡☆~

Hi Anon:

We seem to jump back and forth between threads responding to each other. Maybe you and I should start our own NEW one? Lol

I want to address 2 things you mentioned in your Post. The first is about keeping momentos or them bringing back good or bad memories.

I'd like to tell you a little story about just such a thing that recently happened to me and it actually INCLUDED writing a letter...so it kind of addresses your other issue too.

When my mom passed away in December 2013, I would say that I was not devastated.... Perhaps because we had been prepared that it was coming for a while or perhaps because of my childhood with her.... Or maybe a little of both. But after she passed, my half sister and I (you might want to read my last post over on the other thread?) ended up having a major, nuclear blowup. I won't go into all the details right now but the short version is that I discovered that she had hidden one of our mom's Bank Accounts from me, not listed it on the Estate, and wiped it out for herself. Our mom's Will specified that her and I split everything 50/50. She stated that we were to go into her mobile home together and take turns picking what we wanted. When we got ready to sell that trailer, the RE Agent said it HAD to be cleaned up. I tried to get my sister to help. She said it was fine. I cleaned for 20 straight hrs by myself and never got mad at my sister. But while cleaning, I started noticing things....mom's jewelry was gone from her boxes, her cedar chest was gone, her oak bench was gone, her bathroom shelf was gone, and many other things. I texted my sister and asked where they were. She said she had them. I asked WHY? She said that out mom had wanted all that furniture at my sister's house (while she was there on her death bed!). I kept my cool...she was so fragile over mom's loss I reminded myself, but reminded her that we were to pick through those items by taking turns. She got very angry and screamed that she would bring them back if that's what I wanted! I told her, calmly, that she could hold them there until we decided if I was to get any of them. I did not even MENTION the jewelry at that time. She slammed the phone down. I didn't know it but THIS WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE NEW SISTER I WAS ABOUT TO MEET!

After that I hired a contractor to fix all the things that had to be fixed for the trailer to pass inspection. I even did a lot of the work myself. I laid a new kitchen tile floor down, I cleaned out all of her closets and dressers and either organized it for other family members to look at or bagged it for charity. It was then that I discovered that my mom was also a shopaholic and probably a borderline "hoarder." I have NO doubt that if she had not been restricted by her heart and emphysema, keeping her from ANY physical exertion.... That she WOULD have been a hoarder! And here's the ironic part! She would come for visits to my house (before it got in this shape) and bit*h at me because I had too many clothes. She would tell me it WAS RIDICULOUS and a WASTE OF MONEY!

Would you like to take a guess at what I found in her closets and spare rooms, on the floors, the dressers, and bathroom? CLOTHES!!! HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of clothes, 2/3 of them never taken out of their wrappers or still having price tags!!!! They were EVERYWHERE!

I actually stood there staring in shock, wondering how in the hell she had the nerve to cuss at me when she had ALL THIS??!!

Anyway, that was ANOTHER 24 straight hours of cleaning, no help from my sister. She was too busy, she said. I still kept my cool, coddling her poor emotions like I'd done all our lives.

Now, please pay close attention to this. You'll understand why later. As I cleaned my mom's closet, dressers, kitchen cabinets, everything.... I would find change here and there. You know, 34 cents here, 12 cents there, etc. She obviously, like me, had a purse fetish too (also something she put me down for!). I went through EVERY purse before I bagged it for donation and found pennies, buckled, Etc. I never found more than a couple quarters in one place. I took ALL that change I found during that entire cleanup period, even looking under the furniture, inside cushions, everywhere!...and I put it ALL in a plastic container with a lid.

Now I did not count it. I contacted my sister and told her I found a bunch of change and wanted to split it with her. I told her I had no idea how much was there because I wanted to be fair and count it with her. Imagine this: she was available that evening! She wasn't too busy for that!

So we met at a shopping center. And I had even brought along another plastic container for her to put her half in. We counted every coin. It ended up giving us each something like $8.32. There was an extra penny which she generously told me I could keep. I gave it to her. She said thanks and drove away.

Between all the cleaning, the ordering of materials, the invoicing and paying of the contractor, and doing ALL the RE transactions so that all my sister had to do was sign, I'd say I probably put over 2-3 weeks worth of work time into that trailer if not more. Let me tell you what my sister FINALLY went there and did. She showed up 2 hrs late, said she could only stay a couple hrs and she painted some screw heads on the outside of the trailer and removed the screens from the Windows. THAT IS IT!!! And she received HALF the proceeds of that sale!

Now, for the best part. I was asked to provide some of my mom's Bank statements showing her SS income, her rent payments Etc. to the Estate Judge. My sister, for reasons I NOW understand, had removed ALL of my mom's paperwork. ALL OF IT. I asked her for the Bank Statements for the Judge and she said she didn't have them. NOW I decided to start listening to that nagging little voice that had been haunting me for weeks. So since we were Co-Executors of mom's Will, I went to the Bank my sister had reported to the Judge and asked for the last 2 years of statements.

Once I studied them I realized this account was NOT receiving our mom's SS check deposit. And it wasn't paying her rent either. It was paying just her smaller bills.

Ok, so now I realize that there must be ANOTHER checking ACCT. I went to the SS Admin and found out my mom's check had been going to an entirely different checking account for at least 5+ years.

Now, my mom and I had discussed long ago that she had put my sister's name on her checking account but she wanted to make it very clear to me that THE ONLY REASON was so that my sister could pay her bills if she was in the Hospital (which was all the time). My mom said that the money was NOT my sister's and she was telling me why her name was in it so that if I found out, I wouldn't misunderstand and think she was giving my sister something she wasn't giving me. She said whatever's in my Bank is for you 2 to split.

Now, I am not trying to put my mom down but she only had an 8th grade education so if my sister, me or anyone with more education told her this is how something has to be, she accepted it as truth.

Anyway, I went to that Bank and tried to get any info I could on that account. I explained that I needed it for her Estate. I presented my proof of Executorship. She looked at me kind of in shock. She said, "Did Ms. XX pass away??!" I said, "Yes, in Dec 2013." It was now April 2014. The Bank Manager said, "We were not told she was deceased!" I asked what that meant, was the account closed? She said no, it was still open but it had my sister's name on it too. I said yes I'm not surprised. She told me she was doing that to get her bills paid by my sister.

I asked if she could tell me how much was in there for the Judge so we could add it to my mom's assets. She said NOTHING! Your sister withdrew it all. I sat there dumbfounded. I said, but it was supposed to be included in my mom's estate! She said well, when she first opened it, she only had your sister on the account as no more than a "signer" with no access privileges. But then she came back in with your sister and they filled out a card making her a joint owner. I said "did my mom ask what that meant?" She said I asked her and she said your sister had explained it. IMAGINE THAT!!!! I said so what exactly does that mean? She said it means that when she passes the money would be your sister's. I said "would it still have to be reported as my mom's asset to the Court?" She said YES OF COURSE! But, she said, they didn't report it because my sister did not tell them she had passed away when she wd the money. I asked when did she DO that? She said April 2. We opened our mom's estate April 4! I said can you give me even a hint of how much it was?

Now, keep in mind, my sister told me there was one Bank account. It had $2600 in it which we split.

I told the Manager about the other ACCT. And I said well, I guess she WAS paying bills for mom out of it. She looked at the screen and said, "for purposes of the estate and creditors that may come for their money, I can tell you that NO BILLS were paid out of this account for at least the last 4/5 months."

Then when I told her how much my half of the other account had been, she said, "Gee that was very generous of her considering...." And then she said, "oops!"

I said, "may I ask how much money my mom had to pay bills 4 or 5 months ago so that I can estimate for the Judge?" She knew I was trying to figure out how much my sister took AND she knew I could come very close because I knew now what was going in and what was Not coming out. She said, "well, I suppose I can tell you that for the Judge since we will now close the account."

She said she had approximately $3600 in there. My mom's SS checks AND her retirement checks from my stepdad (also going in there) totaled almost $1300 per month! So even if you only use 4 months, that's $5200! Add $3600 to that and you have $8800!

I figured it out quickly and said, "did she wd less than $10,000?" She said yes. I said, "Did she withdraw more than $7000?" She said yes and I cannot say anymore. I said, "I'm guessing somewhere around $8800."

She got up from her desk and as she walked away, she said, "you must have gotten good grades in math in school. Have a great weekend and I'm very sorry about your mother....and your sister."

Still I said NOTHING to my sister. But I began to dig into things. Suffice it to say it appears that she may have gotten $50,000 more that should have been listed in my mother's estate.... She did 7 years of mom's taxes, not claiming my mom's $7500 cd every year, she obviously went into the trailer and took anything valuable, she tried to go behind my back and collect almost a $1000 refund from the electric company, the list goes on and on!

Finally, after trying to CALMLY talk to her about all of this, she began to call me up screaming, send me scathing emails, called me the scum of the Earth, said I was a greedy bitch. Basically she accused me of everything SHE DID AND WAS.

It finally came to a head and once the estate was settled and closed, we agreed to never see or talk to each other ever again! We both agreed that we DO NOT HAVE A SISTER OF ANY KIND.

I found out during all of this that she was drinking, literally had become a drunk.

Please do me a favor.... Everyone I've told this story too says how sad it is because we are all that's left of mom.... That we should try to find a way to mend this. Please don't be one of those people. I can tell you with all my heart, soul, and being, that we can never mend this. The damage is too bad. I have no desire to and neither does she. I feel nothing for her now but contempt, resentment, disappointment, shock, and yes, hatred. And SHE truly believes that I AM the devil here; that I caused all this to happen! So please just let it be. It is what it is.

Now the writing and the mementos. And lord, I hope for your sake, this isn't as long!

In the back of my mind, I've always had this question as to whether my mom knew about this extra money and made the decision to secretly let it go to my sister. The reason I feel that way is because my sister lived very close to my mom and she would take her many times to her Dr's Appts, pick up her meds, etc. My mom was the type who felt she needed to pay someone for helping her for ANYTHING. It would not be that far fetched for my mom to say to my sister, "look, since you've been so helpful to me by getting me to my doctor, picking up my meds, etc., I'm going to leave whatever's left in this other bank account to you but you can't tell your sister because it will hurt her."

And the $50,000? It was one of those asbestos lawsuits that was being paid to my stepdad until his death. But the court documents stated that it was to go to my mom's estate once he passed. Those papers were still in place; active. However, here's what my sister did. Once he passed, that lawsuit money would have automatically transferred to my mom AFTER his estate settled. My sister left his estate open for 15 years!!!! She closed his estate AFTER we closed mom's so that the money could not pass into my mom's estate! It was over $50,000!

But, once again, it is VERY possible that my mom could have been aware of this and allowed it. Her way of thinking, I know for a fact, much of the time, was "whatever it is-- if it was from her dad, it's hers. And if something was from your dad or our marriage, it's yours!"
So it's entirely possible that she told my sister that she didn't want his money (they had separated but he died before they divorced) and that she could HAVE IT.

As long as I have those POSSIBLE scenarios in my head, I get angry and hurt at my mother.

So.... When she passed... Almost like a ROBOT... Like it was something I was supposed to do!... I dedicated one whole wall in my hallway to her. I hung pictures, a Poem I wrote her, the letter she wrote my sister and I (framed).... Just a whole wall dedicated to MOM. It kind of felt like I had to in order to prove to people I missed her and cared!

But EVERY time I went in my bedroom I passed that wall. I found myself trying not to look at it! I found myself feeling very uncomfortable with it!

At that time I had a counselor that I no longer saw but we would have a phone conversation about once every few months.

I'm sorry.... I'm going to have to leave you hanging... I need to go get one of those dreaded shots in my spine for my herniated disk. But if you want to hear the end of this let me know and I'll finish it when I can. There's not much left. If you don't that's ok too. Hugs!

Hey there? I just posted in the other thread regarding your situation. I totally hear you about the mess holding the memories and bad experiences. I have that, too. Its almost as if touching or moving the mess will make that part of my life more real or reactivate it somehow. I recently read about an online writing class where you literally rewrite your experiences in a way that changes your perspective about the past. I wish id writed down the exact name of it, but i like that idea! Im even trying to clean up my place in a way that keeps some of the more fun stuff, and let go of the gross crazy stuff, so it makes my drug years seem less...um...regretful.
I can certainly see where you became a clean freak to gain control. I actually think a lot of people do that, but to a lesser degree. A lot of mothers focus on cleaning instead of just spending time with their kids, or nag at their kids unnecessarily about their rooms being tidy. Your childhood sounds awful. I am so sorry you had to go through that. Also, after reading your post in this thread, my suggestion about diet changes in the other thread may not apply. I just see so many people's health worsen on diets of processed foods, meat & dairy, pharmaceuticals, etc.
I do think about if i ever really got this place, or a new little cabin, clean, what it would take to keep it clean out on this jungle?! The spider webs & ants & dirt is constant & almost impossible to keep out. For about half of the year, literally as soon as i clear spiderwebs, they put them back, often within an hour! Im gradually getting things better, but my procrastination has been a real problem!

Hey there? I just posted in the other thread regarding your situation. I totally hear you about the mess holding the memories and bad experiences. I have that, too. Its almost as if touching or moving the mess will make that part of my life more real or reactivate it somehow. I recently read about an online writing class where you literally rewrite your experiences in a way that changes your perspective about the past. I wish id writed down the exact name of it, but i like that idea! Im even trying to clean up my place in a way that keeps some of the more fun stuff, and let go of the gross crazy stuff, so it makes my drug years seem less...um...regretful.
I can certainly see where you became a clean freak to gain control. I actually think a lot of people do that, but to a lesser degree. A lot of mothers focus on cleaning instead of just spending time with their kids, or nag at their kids unnecessarily about their rooms being tidy. Your childhood sounds awful. I am so sorry you had to go through that. Also, after reading your post in this thread, my suggestion about diet changes in the other thread may not apply. I just see so many people's health worsen on diets of processed foods, meat & dairy, pharmaceuticals, etc.
I do think about if i ever really got this place, or a new little cabin, clean, what it would take to keep it clean out on this jungle?! The spider webs & ants & dirt is constant & almost impossible to keep out. For about half of the year, literally as soon as i clear spiderwebs, they put them back, often within an hour! Im gradually getting things better, but my procrastination has been a real problem!

First, Hello to my friend Anonymoniker! It's been a while!

Next, I'd like to give the 2 of you my perspective on this, for what it's worth. Unlike one of you, who says you discovered your husband lived like this with his mother, I wasn't quite like that. But I have a feeling that the underlying REASON for both of your spouses' behavior is going to be similar to most of us current "hoarders."

When I was in my teens, I had a typical messy room like any teenager. My room was actually probably not as bad as most of my friends' rooms. Then my mom married my alcoholic stepfather who either couldn't stand me one day OR made sexual advances at me on other days. In the end, I was basically put out of my home with them with no place to live at age 17 because I wouldn't and couldn't pay the rent my stepfather demanded I pay to live with them while working 2 jobs and still attending high school. I believe it was at this time I started to become a compulsive cleaner. I lived with a friend who's mom was nice enough to take me in. I got married early just to get out of that situation.

Once married, I became a cleaning FANATIC. I drove my then husband nuts. We both worked 5 days a week and when we came home, the apt. had to be SPOTLESS or we couldn't go to bed. Every Saturday was TOTAL CLEANING DAY. I actually would STRIP the wax off the apt kitchen floor EVERY Saturday and then WAX it again. Every nic nac was washed and replaced, walls were scrubbed, on and on. We were lucky if the cleaning was done in less than 8-10 hrs!! We would never agree to go anywhere or do anything with friends on Saturdays because it was CLEANING DAY!! Obviously I had a serious OCD at that time! It caused an argument every week with my ex too! He thought I was a nut! Especially if I didn't like the way he did something and I would completely re-do it! I started going to counseling and learned that, as a result of my childhood (it was NOT a good one), followed by my terrible experience with my mom and stepdad, this behavior was basically my way of "getting and maintaining CONTROL of SOME part of my life" since I felt I had NEVER had any control before.

NOW.... Fast forward to present day. Now I am a hoarder, a clutterer. I am the EXACT OPPOSITE of that OCD woman!! And why is that? Because I have LOST CONTROL OF MY LIFE AGAIN. But this time I'm NOT trying to regain the control. I've submitted to it. I've given up. Actually, the mess that I'm surrounded by somehow COMFORTS ME in a sick kind of way. And WHEN did this change occur? It occurred at a time in my life when the STRONG ME finally got broken. When I finally admitted defeat. When the multitudes of stress became so many that I could not fight back anymore. So NOW this clutter CONTROLS ME. And cleaning it up scares the hell out of me because the things that caused it to get this way are lurking beneath all this mess. And unreasonably, I tell myself that if I leave it alone, I don't have to face the REASON it GOT THIS WAY!

So you're probably wondering "what is she rambling about and what does this have to do with our spouses?" What I'm trying to say is that there is a REASON why your spouses are doing what they are doing. And somehow you two need to find a gentle way to find out what that reason IS or what STARTED IT? I'm now aware that severe stress and traumatic events that come one after the other are what trigger my backslides. I had cleaned and organized my house after 3-5 years of it being a wreck only to wake up one day and realize it was right back where it was those 3 yrs ago. And I realized I had lost my mother and 2 close aunts within 6 months of each other, disowned my sister (and her me) in court right after that, lost 3 pets, acquired a $25k dental Bill, went in the hospital with a suspected heart attack, owed IRS a bunch of money, had to see if I had a potential malpractice lawsuit, was facing possible surgery, and it went on and on. I just felt like my life was spiraling completely out of control and there was nothing I could do about it. And as I looked at my house, it shocked me to see that the condition of my house now reflected the condition of my "life!"

There is always an underlying reason for "hoarding." I think that before you can convince either of your spouses to clean up or throw out, or organize, you are going to have to find out WHY they DO IT. If they won't go to counseling, then perhaps you can find someone qualified to come to your house to try to talk to them? They may resist or even be pissed at first but if this person is any good at what they do, they should at least be able to get your spouses to agree to LISTEN to THEM.

I'm still struggling here myself. But I KNOW why my house looks like it does. My biggest problem right now is that it has gotten so out of hand that the task still feels too overwhelming to tackle. I'm tackling small pieces at a time. But I now am in a position where I have a TIME LIMIT if I want to keep from being Foreclosed on. So I HAVE to come up with a better plan for myself.

I hope some of this has helped the 2 of you in some way. Please keep us up to date.

Maybe, he would like to have things be nicer, but just cant figure out how? I say this because its that way for me. I didnt live this way before in other homes ive had as an adult, tho i did have a messy bedroom growing up, and a bunch of stuff piled in my closet as a kid. I loved having nice, simple spaces that were pleasant & that i was proud to invite people over to! And most would say how cute it was. Its only been here that things got WAY out of control & overwhelming. Is it possible he feels,that way too? Maybe if it wouldnt be so much work & so anxiety producing, he would like it to be nicer? It might be good for him to explore his feelings about it? It could open a door...or a window for change? Maybe? Not to be giving false hope, but from my perspective it seems it could?

Maybe, he would like to have things be nicer, but just cant figure out how? I say this because its that way for me. I didnt live this way before in other homes ive had as an adult, tho i did have a messy bedroom growing up, and a bunch of stuff piled in my closet as a kid. I loved having nice, simple spaces that were pleasant & that i was proud to invite people over to! And most would say how cute it was. Its only been here that things got WAY out of control & overwhelming. Is it possible he feels,that way too? Maybe if it wouldnt be so much work & so anxiety producing, he would like it to be nicer? It might be good for him to explore his feelings about it? It could open a door...or a window for change? Maybe? Not to be giving false hope, but from my perspective it seems it could?

Anonymoniker,

Thank you for your insight. I really think my husband is a person who LIKES the chaotic mess. I did not know this until after we were married with one child. That is when I went to visit his mother who still lived in his home. The upstairs where his mother lived was normal. Then I went downstairs to "his" area. It was a complete, dirty hoard. I was shocked. He had never showed that side of himself to me before marriage. It was decades of everything you could imagine, including clothes from the 50's and 60's that are stained, holes, faded and too small for him, paper bags, plastic bags, bottles, pennies, TONS of books, mail from 20 years ago, receipts from decades ago, everything. It was nuts. Cobwebs everywhere and that is what he lived in. Now he has transformed MY home into another version of his house: upstairs is nice, downstairs is a pit.

As a person on the other end of y'all's situation, meaning i was recently left because of my mess, ...it was never directly expressed, but im sure it was a big part, maybe i can offer some possible insight for shifting things..i know that if i did not want my place to be nicer, i would now be relieved to squat in my squalor, but because i DO, SOOO MUCH want it better, i am even more motivated now cuz i can go full time, and i want to get something worth while done from the loss, and theres this likely false hope of me telling him how gorgeous my place is now, someday in the future, and just that would be soothing to me...and the fantasy of that bringing him back....anyway, is it possible yalls partners maybe do want their home nicer, too? Maybe deep down? On some level? Would it make sense at some conducive moment, to ask them that? Very gently, BUT ALSO; tell them they dont need to give you an answer, but to just think about it and know in their own head and heart what their answer is...maybe its conditional in some ways or whatever...it is weird with me cuz being pushed to toss everything with abandon made me clench on tighter, whereas with my handyman wanting me to go the other way, into even worse chaos & mess, im having a much stronger desire to transform things into a nice home. None of this may apply to yalls situation, but i thought id just throw it out there...

As a person on the other end of y'all's situation, meaning i was recently left because of my mess, ...it was never directly expressed, but im sure it was a big part, maybe i can offer some possible insight for shifting things..i know that if i did not want my place to be nicer, i would now be relieved to squat in my squalor, but because i DO, SOOO MUCH want it better, i am even more motivated now cuz i can go full time, and i want to get something worth while done from the loss, and theres this likely false hope of me telling him how gorgeous my place is now, someday in the future, and just that would be soothing to me...and the fantasy of that bringing him back....anyway, is it possible yalls partners maybe do want their home nicer, too? Maybe deep down? On some level? Would it make sense at some conducive moment, to ask them that? Very gently, BUT ALSO; tell them they dont need to give you an answer, but to just think about it and know in their own head and heart what their answer is...maybe its conditional in some ways or whatever...it is weird with me cuz being pushed to toss everything with abandon made me clench on tighter, whereas with my handyman wanting me to go the other way, into even worse chaos & mess, im having a much stronger desire to transform things into a nice home. None of this may apply to yalls situation, but i thought id just throw it out there...

hey Tillie,

not that I advocate bringing in more "things," but I too was trying to figure out where to keep extra blankets and pillows. I saw some beds that are a platform where the mattress flips up (like a lid) and has storage under the mattress! I think this is a great idea, but of course, we would have to get rid of the current bed to justify having a storage bed. My bad does not have much space underneath or I would use those thin tubs and store things under there. Maybe that would work for you.

I am frustrated enough that today I took a few things (mainly tools and coolers) and just threw them in his storage room, up on top of everything else. It is a mess but if he wants to find things he will have to sort it. I don't want all those things spilling out into our yard anymore.

There are about 15 or 20 partial cans of old paint sitting in the yard also. I am going to take one or two that are the most full and most recent, put them away, and then get rid of all the rest. He will be angry but "you left them in the yard for months, so I figured they were trash." I hate having to wait until he leaves and then hurry to get rid of things, but that's the only way I can get anything out of here.

I wish you the best Tillie, you sound like such a nice person I wish we were friends in real life. Hugs to you. We will get through it.

Yeah
not having any place to store things is a big problem I have too.
We have severe winters and need space heaters and heavy blankets & comforters that all need to be stored when the weather warms up.
But if I put stuff in the garage or pump house
he tends to decide those things are trash and he gives them all away.

I put/store some stuff in my one tiny little room that's all my own
and cover it with a pretty table cloth to disguise it

This message board is a great place
because just letting it all out and knowing we are not all alone in our struggles
is a real life saver.

Sorry for posting my complaints so much. There is no where else for me to talk about this. I am really struggling and I know some of you can relate.

I am getting really stressed out. I have managed to keep the upstairs mostly clutter free... if he leaves anything, even one item upstairs I immediately take it back downstairs to his "areas." But my bedroom, that is an issue. None of his stuff is in there anymore (he has his own hoarder bedroom downstairs) but I do have way, way too much stuff in my own room. I truly have gotten rid of most of my own things, but I have a few boxes and tubs in my room taking up a lot of space. All I want is to be able to put those boxes away downstairs. Maybe in the garage or the storage room. But his stuff is taking up 100% of the storage space so I have no where but my own bedroom to put these things.

I feel like getting my bedroom clutter free is the final bit I need to do upstairs to feel relaxed and sleep well. I cannot do it because of all his junk. I am trying to decide if I should just wait until he is gone for a few hours and haul several boxes of his junk to the Goodwill to make a little room. I doubt he would miss any of it, but if he did, he might take MY things to the Goodwill to spite me.

I hate this whole situation. It is so unfair. Why does he get to have thousands of things that he hasn't looked at in 30 years but I can't save the few things that are important to me?

I am so sorry Tillie. I totally understand the loss of hope, but there IS hope for us both. Not sure your age or your husband's age? I am much younger than my husband so I assume if we stay together I WILL have to clean up his stuff... but as sad as it will be when he is gone (death is always a sad loss), if this happens I imagine I will be absolutely thrilled when throwing all of his stuff in the dumpster. I feel like a horrible person sometimes thinking, well he is older, when he is gone I can throw it all out with glee. But that is the truth. Sometimes I dream of him being gone (whether by divorce or by losing him to old age) and being able to take box after box without opening it, to the dump. How free it would be for it all to be gone.

I am in the same sinking boat as you are.

I know that nobody wants to hear the truth about how I am feeling right now.
I always try to keep things on a positive note.
But honestly, right now I am just waiting for death to claim me and I pray constantly that I die before him so I am not left to clean up his mess.

I have posted here several times about my husband who hoards. The best thing anyone told me here is to guard MY areas. I did that for a long time. The last time I shared here was this: I had finally sold, donated, and thrown out enough of MY things in the garage to clear a nice walking path, an oval through the stuff. All his stuff was on one side, mine on the other. I was so proud of this progress and happy. Then a pipe burst in his storage room and when I was not home, he had the kids move EVERY box he had in there into the garage, which literally filled the entire walking path I had cleared, to within a foot of the ceiling. I was livid but thought he would move it all back when the pipe was fixed. But months later, he refused and told me he is NOT going to move any of those things back to the storage room. Instead, he has filled the storage room with MORE junk and now even if I wanted to move it back when he is not home, there is no room.

His bedroom is filled wall to wall with a small path from his bed to the door. His storage room is full. The garage is now full. He also took a lot of the things from the storage room that did not fit into the garage and has just LEFT all of it... tools, boxes, etc... in the back yard, getting ruined. And now, I walk into the family room (my other guarded space) and he has several boxes, a laundry bin, probably 5 or 6 tubs of junk in there. I asked him to move them out and he got very angry and refused. There is really no place to put any of this and I know he is going to fill the family room pronto, if something is not done.

What can I do? I dream of kicking him and his junk out, but that is not feasible right now. He gets very angry and defensive if I even mention the stuff. He refuses to move or sort any of it. He has not used these items in years and years. I have gotten rid of even MORE of my own things because there is no room for me to have anything else.

Is there ANY solution to this? He will not do counseling and when I try to talk to him he hides in his room, will not see a Dr, will not move anything. If he sees me move anything he FLIPS and gets very angry and puts it all back.

Is there any answer to this? I really do not want to go through a divorce and child visitation and all of that. But it is looking more and more like my choices are divorce or being buried in his clutter.