Agreed.

In my discussions with one of them, it's clear, in his mind, there is no junk on the property. Every piece of it is a valuable item.
He's a nice guy. I enjoy talking with him and, to be honest, he does have some valuable antique cars, though they are not being taken care of and rotting away.
Anyway, I don't want to put a cloud over the dialogue we've established by jumping at him with labels. I have a feeling he would be very offended by the idea he is a hoarder. The reality is, he has 2 acres of junk in a protected shoreland area.

As always, thank you for your input.

I'm not sure you need to even bring up the label.

I think you could just ask what is causing the person to not be able to keep up the property and ask them to meet with someone who may be able to help them manage those issues.

INSTEAD OF going straight to court.

Telling someone they are a hoarder is a hostile act. When you intervene in a substance situation, you don't say "you ARE a junkie/drunk", you say we think you HAVE a drug/drinking problem."

person, with a problem.

Not problem in the form of a person.

As I fill in the details of how this program might work, a question that you folks would be best to answer.
How should I breach the subject of:

1. Does the person believe (s)he is a hoarder?
2. Would (s)he be willing to talk to a counsellor?

It's occurred to me that a person may not think of themselves as even having a problem, much less be open to the idea of talking with a professional about it.

As always, thank you for your input.

Thank you.

I said exactly that to my town manager the other day. Do we want to win, or do we want to solve the problem?

I believe a different approach is worth the attempt.

But you are being compassionate and it doesn't really matter if it is utilitarian or selfless.

Your townspeople are suffering from a "sunk cost" fallacy similar to the one that may be stopping your hoarders from cleaning up.

Often hoarders will not part with items because they spent money on them and even if the items are now useless or even harmful, they feel that to give them up would be to lose the money. They prefer to see the person trying to make them give the item up as the problem.

Your townspeople have spent money on a coercive and punitive strategy that has been useless or even harmful, but rather than give it up, they would prefer to see the person who does not respond to this approach as the problem.

I think the question here is, do you want to win, or do you want to succeed?

If the goal is to punish people for living in a way the community finds objectionable - that can be done. So far it seems it has been done.

But if the goal is to stop the people from living in a way the community find objectionable, you seem to have determined that punishment is not the answer. If you keep doing what you are doing, you will keep getting what you are getting.

Mant times, the important information from these discussions takes some time to digest.
One of those is that you are all patting me on the back for being compassionate and caring. While I appreciate the accolades, I'll point out that my job, my goal, is to clean up these properties. The method used is to force compliance. That method has not been working, and that is clear from researching the history of these properties. As I said, most of these extreme cases go back for decades. Code officers before me have taken all the steps that is set out for us. They continue to get worse.
So, something I gained from that, and will need to overcome, many in this community won't want to help these people. Over the years, they have cost the town tens of thousands of dollars trying to force compliance. They don't see, or don't want to see that there is a disorder to deal with. All they see is that we've taken all the legal steps and they are still not compliant. The last thing they want to do is help them.
But, I'm going to sell this idea that until we deal with the cause, the symptom is going to remain.
Your accolades will be eyerolls from some. Your comments have shown me that is going to be an obstacle I will need to be prepared for.
Keep the comments coming. Keep the discussion moving. Thank you.

Thanks for those responses.

As I pull the details together, I'll post how it's going. I do appreciate the input.

Hey CEO
Thank you for your kindness and concern and desire to help. I'm not sure how much help I can be (I'm on a different continent) but I'll try and give some thoughts.

I'm sorry to hear about your daughter's struggles but I'm glad she's in recovery.

My first question is do the people you're working with acknowledge that hoarding is a problem? I think everyone here is aware that hoarding is a problem, but many hoarders don't realize it's a problem (which probably sounds strange to an outsider, but I don't think I would have seen hoarding as a problem if it weren't for my husband bringing it to my attention - as someone who's grown up as a hoarder, I just thought I was an overly sentimental and messy person and that it wasn't a big deal). As with most problems, understanding that there is a problem is a big first step.

As a hoarder, if I was given the option for counseling/therapy, would I make use of it? Definitely, if it was helpful help. Reason I say ‘helpful help' is that I've been to a psychologist to help with my hoarding and the net result from the psychologist is that I must struggle with the anxiety and get rid of stuff despite the anxiety - not very helpful because if I knew how to get rid of stuff despite the anxiety then I would have done that already. Also something to note if you're only offering 3 sessions is how long will it take the therapist to diagnose hoarding disorder? I felt that my psychologist spent a good 4 or 5 sessions assessing the problem (with questionnaires on feelings etc) before we even got to the point of I need to get rid of stuff despite anxiety.

To avoid resentment, it might be helpful to offer these people the option of counseling without mention/threat of a fine. Then it's done in a manner of "we're here to help you" rather than something they need to comply with.

As for progress in cleaning up - I found that having a trusted and supportive friend helped me. We cleaned out the pantry and she was so kind, she came in and she said that we didn't have to throw anything away, and because she had that attitude and support I didn't feel forced to throw anything away so I wasn't so anxious and could actually throw things away (the task also seemed much less overwhelming). Also, she asked me before throwing things away so I didn't have to worry that things I wanted would be thrown out. Not sure if a therapist would be able to help these people in that way?

I know SubC likened hoarding to drugs. I see it as similar to depression - I have this problem, I don't want to be this way, but I can't/don't know how to get rid of it.

Hope this helps in some way. Have a great day.

CEO, I'm sorry for your daughter's struggles, but glad that you are able to get some perspective from them. Her job sounds like she would be a great sounding board and resource, because in some ways recovery is recovery. I don't think hoarding is as hard as drugs though, because while there is an element of emotional reinforcement, there is not the strong physical response - at most you are dealing with adrenaline and lower levels of dopamine.

Your plan sounds really good. And compassionate, thank you.

I'm also glad you could talk to Cory.

Would I take advantage. That's a hard question. One, I'm further along the road to recovery and have a more rational view of the stuff than I did at bottom, and two, my hoarding has been mostly inside and out of community view. I would definitely have met with the counselor to avoid a fine, but I may well have resented it and not gone in with a helpful attitude, so you need some really good counselors.

We have at least one person here who deals with agarophobia, so that would be an extra stumbling block for her.

You also need to work with the "why" of the hoarding, because it's not one size fits all. With outside stuff they are likely to have an inflated sense of value over cost (scarcity mindset) or be looking for the "best" way to get rid of it (recycling or sale or donation not trash). Sentimental attachment tends to be more inside stuff. But I guess it could also be the junked car you drove to your first job..

Thank you for that reply. Your opening sentence got my mind working. One of my children is a recovering heroin addict. She is now 12 years clean, a LCSW and is the director at the largest recovery center in the state. So, that gives me some good perspective.
I've talked with a behavioral therapy organization locally. I still need to make the sale to the council, but, as it stands, we're spending $300/hour on attorneys to bring these cases to court. Even after all the hearings and citations and judgements, the property remains in disarray. It may get cleaned up, somewhat, for a little while, but, we'll be back. All of my most extreme cases have history that is decades long. I'm just the latest CEO to come around and bother them.
I'm going to work with the local agency, and set a program into motion, where the municipality will require the violator to attend up to 3 sessions, at the expense of the municipality, to determine if the violator 1.) Is a hoarder, and 2.) Is likely to follow through with therapy to resolve the problem. I will be working with the violator to make ANY progress on the property, in the meantime. After the initial sessions, we can look at each case individually.
This seems, to me, to be better money spent than attorneys fees.
My question for you, if this option were presented to you, would you be likely to take advantage of it? What is the best way for me to approach the subject with a violator? Keep in mind, I already have established some rapport with most of these folks, trying to gain voluntary compliance. They talk and they're pleasant, but, we're not getting anywhere in cleaning up. As I said before, fines are not working. I need to find a different method. Believe it or not, the town does not want to own your property.
By the way, I spoke with the founder of this company, Cory Chalmers, this morning. He gave me some great information and I'm thankful for his time.
I appreciate any input you may bring. Have a great day!

Unfortunately this is a lot like drug issues, where the law provides for incarceration without treatment in many cases when treatment and additional support are what is needed. I'm not sure how much you can do on your own. It would be great if you could advocate for law/policy changes where those fines go into a fund for treatment and assistance or even better, property owners are given connections to resources that can help them - both with the physical clean up and the mental and emotional struggles, and then only fined if they refuse to engage with those resources.

Hello. I am a code enforcement officer in a small municipality. I am a fairly new CEO, 4 years. I have prosecuted several "junkyards" in my jurisdiction, with questionable success. With that, I have been successful in court, gaining judgements against property owners and levying fines in the 100's of 1000's of dollars. Some will say I am very good at what I do.
But, as I begin into the next Consent Agreement with another owner, I am not feeling successful. I've known for some time that I am really dealing with a disorder and while winning in court may make the council happy, it brings me no pleasure and, honestly, isn't accomplishing what I would like to accomplish.
It's time to work smarter. This is not working.
I'm interested in hearing from you. How can I enforce the laws, while actually helping those who have this trait? I am convinced that, across the board, the people with whom I come into contact do not want to be buried in junk. Do not like what their environment has become and want to clean it up. But, when it comes to action, there's always something that prevents that from happening. Eventually, what starts out as cooperation turns into an adversarial position and nobody wins. The mess gets cleaned up a little, or, more likely, it gets moved around so it looks better for a short time, the owner is deep in debt and the mess returns.
There has to be a better way.